Cirrus and R44 collide in Maryland

This was all before the tower (FWIW, one report is there is no radar feed to the cab from Potomac).

The gliders (NORDO) used the grass next to the short runway, the autogyro(NORDO) was using whichever taxiway he desired, the helicopters were opposite flow to the big grass, and everybody else was on the long runway. Mass hysteria....

My guess is that the R44 was in the pattern and the Cirrus was inbound from the west. The helicopter would use LH pattern for 5 or 12 and that would put it on the west side of the airport.
 
"It was like Armageddon," a neighbor said, describing chaos after the collision. "This does not happen in Frederick."

Unfortunately it was bound to happen. That airport was almost like Ocean City in the middle of summer. I flew a lot there during my Private Pilot training, and it is indeed a scary place. RIP
 
"It was like Armageddon," a neighbor said, describing chaos after the collision. "This does not happen in Frederick."

Unfortunately it was bound to happen. That airport was almost like Ocean City in the middle of summer. I flew a lot there during my Private Pilot training, and it is indeed a scary place. RIP

Went there for the first time recently with a CFI and it was extraordinarily busy. The tower controller was doing a heck of a job sorting everyone out. Not the kinda place I would want to show up without a more-than-necessary level of SA.
 
Ten years ago I interned with the Air Safety Foundation, now Air Safety Institute. I found myself amazed on numerous occasions that midairs were not common-place with the amount of traffic and its variety. I figured it was a combination of pilots demonstrating heads-up situational awareness with some luck mixed in for good measure. I've flown in a few evenings this fall to have dinner at the restaurant and was pleasantly surprised at the lack of traffic at one time. Steady, but not crazy. RIP to those involved. I look forward to the findings and learning anything we can from it. Safe flying everyone!
 
When I was flying out of there for survey I couldn't wait to leave. A few of us said "when" not "if" a mid-air happens, we don't want to be anywhere near the airport. I just can't believe how busy and seriously dangerous that place was.It took way too long to get a tower, but I will admit I didn't think something like this would happen once the tower opened.
 
I do NOT recommend going anywhere near the audio on YouTube. Deeply unpleasant. Listening to that stuff for a living must be harrowing work.
 
I do NOT recommend going anywhere near the audio on YouTube. Deeply unpleasant. Listening to that stuff for a living must be harrowing work.
This, I really wish I hadn't listened to it. Prayers to everyone involved is all I can say.
 
I'm not going to listen to the audio.

Maybe it's just because I'm freshly back from JC and aviationally-inspired, but this accident is really, really nagging at me because it happened pretty much in my training back yard. There are a LOT of airplanes in that area who go up to FDK, GAI and OKV for training - they're all within just a few minutes of each other in the air.

I think this is the first one of these kinds of accidents where I'm sitting realizing that it really COULD happen to me. Not just knowing it academically, but really knowing it.
 
Agree with the comments re: the audio. Nothing pleasant there, however it does provide relatively good insight for an SA analysis
We've had strong westerly winds the past few days so runway 30 was in use which is not the predominant operation at FDK. Controller was working 2 helis in the pattern, 2 planes doing practice instrument approaches to 23, cleared the accident heli (3rd heli) for takeoff from "A" for pattern work, told the accident airplane to report 3 miles west and later cleared him to land with the provision to maintain his altitude until turning base, then began issuing an IFR clearance to departing jet. That's a pretty signficant work load especially for a contract tower controller. I've flown in that controllers airspace and have been favorably impressed with her SA.

Clearly she expected there to be vertical separation as she believed the helis to be at 1000MSL (~700 AGL). Published TPA for a Cirrus is 1000' AGL (~1300 MSL). I never heard a altimeter setting given to the arriving Cirrus, but just a bit of slop in setting the altimiter in each aircraft plus a bit of distraction or fatigue can easily erase 300' of seperation. The "I've got 2 of them in sight" comment is absoluetly chilling.

I think its doubtful there will be radar tracks that low to allow a forensic examination of the aircraft tracks.

Edited to add, This accident doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling about the proposed camera based remote tower experiment proposed for Leesburg (Just south of FDK). I've always maintained its a fallacy that towers make airports "safer" just by their existance. At airports like FDK and JYO where the traffic mix is heavily biased towards VFR operations I feel there is minimal to negative impact on safety by having a tower.
 
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When I was flying out of there for survey I couldn't wait to leave. A few of us said "when" not "if" a mid-air happens, we don't want to be anywhere near the airport. I just can't believe how busy and seriously dangerous that place was.It took way too long to get a tower, but I will admit I didn't think something like this would happen once the tower opened.

I've always felt that way about the various airports between TPA and MCO.
 
That's a pretty signficant work load especially for a contract tower controller. I've flown in that controllers airspace and have been favorably impressed with her SA.
If it's the same controller that I'm thinking of, yeah, she's very good.

Edited to add, This accident doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling about the proposed camera based remote tower experiment proposed for Leesburg (Just south of FDK). I've always maintained its a fallacy that towers make airports "safer" just by their existance. At airports like FDK and JYO where the traffic mix is heavily biased towards VFR operations I feel there is minimal to negative impact on safety by having a tower.

I fly out of JYO sometimes, and I know a few people here fly out of there a lot. What's this proposed camera experiment you speak of?

JYO can be a bit tricky for VFR traffic because of the proximity to IAD and everyone taking the same route in and out of the Blue Ridge slot. I've seen it get hairy there a few times, but they've been refining the recommended procedures lately to at least give them some logic.
 
After listening to the audio my heart goes out to the controller. Can't imagine watching it happen at the same time made it any better.

I'm sure those of you who are on accident review boards have plenty of these horrible recordings etched in your brain.
 
Here is some info Killbilly.

http://www.leesburgva.gov/index.aspx?page=2067

I actually know quite a bit about the FAA's forays into Virtual Tower research. I flew target aircraft for a proof of concept at Spokane way back in 2006 or 2007. There we used cameras plus ADS-B in and out that gave both pilots and controllers the traffic picture both airborne and on the surface. We included ADS-B equipped surface vehicles. The level of SA provided was outstanding and at the time I likened it to the advent of GPS in terms of positional awareness.

When ADS-B is a reality I hope we'll go there, but a camera only system - even one with pixel detection to direct a controllers attention - does not inspire my confidence. I want another surveillance source. I got to see the proposed Sensis system at NATCA a few weeks ago and noted many many false alerts on their display as the system detected birds and cars passing in the background. A simulated out the window picture is a classic case of applying technology to duplicate existing capability rather than provide new and better capability.
 
This one hits close to home for me. I did my instrument and commercial all at Frederick before there was a tower. I hate to say it but this accident doesn't surprise me at all. It was nothing to have to dodge other people while flying there. There were at least 3 times that I was very close to getting in a midair in the pattern.

Prayers to everyone involved.
 
I do NOT recommend going anywhere near the audio on YouTube. Deeply unpleasant. Listening to that stuff for a living must be harrowing work.

After listening to the audio my heart goes out to the controller. Can't imagine watching it happen at the same time made it any better.
I'm sure those of you who are on accident review boards have plenty of these horrible recordings etched in your brain.

It certainly hasn't been pleasant, with the ones I've had to work. Especially if its someone from your own community (aviation-wise).
 
Edited to add, This accident doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling about the proposed camera based remote tower experiment proposed for Leesburg (Just south of FDK). I've always maintained its a fallacy that towers make airports "safer" just by their existance. At airports like FDK and JYO where the traffic mix is heavily biased towards VFR operations I feel there is minimal to negative impact on safety by having a tower.

What would make you think a tower would necessarily make anything safer? Tower's only job is to sequence, not separate. In VMC, see and avoid is on the aircrews. Always has been, always will be. Unfortunately in terminal areas like these, more traffic comes togethere to where the "big sky, little airplane" theory becomes "much smaller sky, little airplane."
 
In VMC, see and avoid is on the aircrews. Always has been, always will be.

Air crews usually misjudge the altitude of an aircraft anyway even if it's in sight. The world's worst air collision disaster (Saudi 747 and the Illuyshin) happened at the last second when the Illuyshin pilot tried to pull up to avoid collision. Instead the tail ripped right through the fuselage of the Saudi 747 and everyone died on both planes.

Based on the audio so far, the Cirrus pilot should have tried to visually acquire the 3rd helo. If one has been told there are 3 helos in the pattern as you are coming in to land, and you only see 2, IMO that would be concerning until the 3rd can be identified. As this has turned out, this collision was most likely that 3rd helo the Cirrus did not visually acquire.

Also, it begs the question, if the fixed wing props PA is 1000AGL and the helos PA is 700AGL, and tower told the Cirrus to maintain altitude until turning base leg, then who was not where they were supposed to be? A guess would be the Cirrus descended into the helo and the helo guys never had a chance.
 
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