Cheyenne PIC pay...

[z987k]

If a student you sign off on a rating is exercising the privileges of said rating and kills themselves in the process, the FAA will almost always look into the pilot's training history. I've asked my POI about that very scenario and he told me thats what they do.

Oh sure, but they're not going to go after you. They're just going to want background info.

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

If a student you sign off on a rating is exercising the privileges of said rating and kills themselves in the process, the FAA will almost always look into the pilot's training history. I've asked my POI about that very scenario and he told me thats what they do.

They look the the pilots training history and might question the CFI, but its the DPE who will catch the poo storm.

 

[Maurus]

If a student you sign off on a rating is exercising the privileges of said rating and kills themselves in the process, the FAA will almost always look into the pilot's training history. I've asked my POI about that very scenario and he told me thats what they do.

They do but a CFI wont be crucified unless they had a gap in the training records and couldn't prove they did all the required training per the regs. I know the FAA has come to an experience CFI at my last school. Dude is a DPE as well. His solo student had a prop strike and the FAA looked into the student's records. The CFI had meticulously documented everything in her log and and his as well. Even down to the point where he would mention the direction of the X-wind and such. No questions were asked and they ended the investigation as all the required regs for a solo student were beyond satisfied.

This is the reason why I did the same thing as this CFI in my student log books and mine. Regardless of the student being 141 or 61.

Story short, it comes down to your record keeping when the FAA comes to investigate.

They look the the pilots training history and might question the CFI, but its the DPE who will catch the poo storm.

Yeah the DPE definitely will be the one hit hardest. Too bad since it isn't easy to judge the capabilities of a pilot based on a checkride that only lasts a few hours.

 

[purpel]

My job is to try and keep my students safe... If he goes out and Vmc's his Cheyenne the FAA is going to come back to me and the DPE and say, "Why did you sign this guy off"? I'm not prying into his personal business, just interested in his motivation to fly something that I am questioning his need to fly. If I can help guide him to make a better, more appropriate decision then I will take this opportunity to do so. Believe me, I'd rather be logging TPIC time rather than more Piston ME PIC, but I'm also interested in seeing my students make safe, pertinent choices that may affect their lives and mine.

Like 1,000,000 times

Good to see people that care about their students. Too many over inflated rich pilot egoes that have killed their family flying planes they are not supposed to.

I know what I need to know. It's his money and his decision. The choice in front of you is whether or not to participate.

Dislike 1,000,000 times.

Rocketman, Chrisreedrules is trying to help his student in a way that will keep him safe. I would do the same. If my new private multi student wanted to go and buy a plane that requires skill, experience and finesse that he does not have I would ask him to reconsider.
And it sounds like he is part of the transaction, which is doing the research and legwork of finding another airplane that suits his customer/student needs.

 

[cmill]

You're going to "sit him down?" I'm sorry, who's buying the airplane? Who's money is it?

Your role is to help him understand what is needed to own and operate a Cheyenne, and perhaps handle the transaction. It is not to talk him out of if, and certainly not to make him justify it. And why do you care what kind of airplane he buys anyway? If he wants to buy a Cheyenne, offer to help him buy a Cheyenne.

If he asks your advice, by all means offer it, but he can make his own decision.

Apparently you've never tried to work with someone who has overbought into an airplane.

Sure; its his money, but he also doesnt know enough about airplanes to know what he needs. In the interest of self preservation I would try to talk someone out of anything I thought would be too much.

EDIT:
chrisreedrules

go to https://www.conklindd.com/Default.aspx and see how much costs to operate a Cheyenne, and show that to him. It breaks down literally everything, its also pretty much worst case scenario. Once you've done that, then thats all you can do on your part.

 

[Maurus]

Apparently you've never tried to work with someone who has overbought into an airplane.

Yeah you had rough path with that as I recall.

This is why using the 80% rule is good when buying an aircraft. Figure out the mission you want to achieve and find a plane that matches about 80% of that mission. Chances are that will be a more realistic use of the aircraft after the whole "new plane " smell wears off and coincidentally the cost structure will then match the mission it is actually used for.

In the end he may find that he doesn't use it enough to keep the aircraft. Would be cheaper to charter or dry lease an aircraft instead.

rocketman5150 I understand how they may be able to afford the aircraft and such but the people I have known that can afford to buy and fly their own turbine equipment typically started in a Baron or something similar before upgrading to a King Air and then a Jet. It is the smart thing to do. Not to mention if the plane sits for a while his low experience will put him WAY behind the plane when he goes to fly a couple months later.

 

[cezzna]

Ok. Reality check. You're going to operate over the entire southeastern US including Arkansas and Texas, with ancillary trips to the Bahamas and Maine? You might as well just get to where the buffalo is pushing you and that is into some kind if jet. This guy is one pitch away from being a phenom 100 owner. The Cheyenne, if you get it, won't last long. Those are some long segments and if he is serious, he will be in a jet in a year. He probably views a Cheyenne as 'seasoning' for the next gig.

Ask him what he really wants. This guy needs a mentor, a very seasoned pilot to hold his hand through this. Sorry to say it wouldn't/ shouldn't be you. Professional babysitting is a burgeoning market these days.

 

[cmill]

Ok. Reality check. You're going to operate over the entire southeastern US including Arkansas and Texas, with ancillary trips to the Bahamas and Maine? You might as well just get to where the buffalo is pushing you and that is into some kind if jet. This guy is one pitch away from being a phenom 100 owner. The Cheyenne, if you get it, won't last long. Those are some long segments and if he is serious, he will be in a jet in a year. He probably views a Cheyenne as 'seasoning' for the next gig.

Ask him what he really wants. This guy needs a mentor, a very seasoned pilot to hold his hand through this. Sorry to say it wouldn't/ shouldn't be you. Professional babysitting is a burgeoning market these days.

Or he could be one 50,000 dollar invoice from saying screw this mess.

The last guy I flew for was dead certain he wanted a falcon 20. That was after going from a baron to a citation in six months, and having the citation for less than a year. We told him it would cost around a million/yr for the 20 if the damn thing just sat. Guess who is back in the citation market now?

Everyone has a big swingin ding dong until the bills start coming in.

 

[jrh]

Ok. Reality check. You're going to operate over the entire southeastern US including Arkansas and Texas, with ancillary trips to the Bahamas and Maine? You might as well just get to where the buffalo is pushing you and that is into some kind if jet. This guy is one pitch away from being a phenom 100 owner. The Cheyenne, if you get it, won't last long. Those are some long segments and if he is serious, he will be in a jet in a year. He probably views a Cheyenne as 'seasoning' for the next gig.

Very good points here. We have no idea what his budget or end goal is. There's no reason he couldn't go in to a Phenom or Mustang. Still, I suspect there needs to be *some* kind of intermediate aircraft, and I doubt the Cheyenne is it.

Of the clients I've worked with who are in turbine equipment now, the progression went:

C-172 -> Turbo 206 -> Meridian -> King Air 90

C-172 -> Turbo SR22 -> Citation Mustang

C-172 -> Cessna Corvalis -> TBM 850

C-172 -> Turbo 206 -> Silver Eagle Turbine 210

All of them, except for the Turbine 210 owner, went to sim training and used mentor pilots for their first 50-100 hours in turbine equipment.

 

[jrh]

Or he could be one 50,000 dollar invoice from saying screw this mess.

The last guy I flew for was dead certain he wanted a falcon 20. That was after going from a baron to a citation in six months, and having the citation for less than a year. We told him it would cost around a million/yr for the 20 if the damn thing just sat. Guess who is back in the citation market now?

Everyone has a big swingin ding dong until the bills start coming in.

I agree with this, too.

The King Air 90 and Citation Mustang owners I mentioned above both have their aircraft leased back to an established Part 135 charter operation. The chances of sitting for a year are virtually nil. Arranging things in this manner is oftentimes a win-win and adds a lot of financial stability to the situation.

 

[rocketman5150]

My job is to try and keep my students safe... If he goes out and Vmc's his Cheyenne the FAA is going to come back to me and the DPE and say, "Why did you sign this guy off"? I'm not prying into his personal business, just interested in his motivation to fly something that I am questioning his need to fly. If I can help guide him to make a better, more appropriate decision then I will take this opportunity to do so. Believe me, I'd rather be logging TPIC time rather than more Piston ME PIC, but I'm also interested in seeing my students make safe, pertinent choices that may affect their lives and mine.

Your job as an instructor is to provide learning opportunities that enable your client to acquire the skills needed to satisfy the knowledge requirements, aeronautical skills, and practical test standards applicable to the certificate and/or rating he is seeking. Your responsibility is not to sign him off, or recommend him for checkride, until he is consistently meeting those standards in a variety of flights conditions.

However, once he has his certificate, his skills and safety are his responsibility, not yours, and are a matter between him and the FAA. Yes, if he goes out and burys himself, the FAA may ask you about it. As long as you can show that you have carried out your professional responsibilities, you've got nothing to worry about.

Your client is an adult, capable of his own decisions. Whether or not they are informed decisions is up to him, not you. Certainly you can ask about it, and offer advice or help. But it's not your place to "sit him down" about what airplane he should buy.

 

[rocketman5150]

Like 1,000,000 times

Good to see people that care about their students. Too many over inflated rich pilot egoes that have killed their family flying planes they are not supposed to.



Dislike 1,000,000 times.

Rocketman, Chrisreedrules is trying to help his student in a way that will keep him safe. I would do the same. If my new private multi student wanted to go and buy a plane that requires skill, experience and finesse that he does not have I would ask him to reconsider.
And it sounds like he is part of the transaction, which is doing the research and legwork of finding another airplane that suits his customer/student needs.

I don't doubt his motivations. As an instructor he has a responsibility to keep his student safe. But as a consultant, his responsibility is to offer his professional opinon, and then either go where the client points, or remove himself from the situation.

 

[jrh]

rocketman5150, have you gotten a chance to teach much, particularly clients with big ambitions for after they complete training? Your opinion might change if you worked with this type of client for a while. Flight instructing is not always about prepping for a check ride and hammering through a rating. It oftentimes involves mentoring.

I'm typing from my iPhone so can't write much right now, but I just wanted to say I've done this sort of thing a lot, and it's almost universally appreciated. By having a clear picture of where the client is going, the instructor can tweak training to be as applicable as possible.

Sometimes I wonder if these arguments are more about semantics than anything else. I agree, I wouldn't "sit a client down" necessarily, as that could come across as demeaning, but I might "insist we set aside time to discuss plans for the future." Does that sound better?

 

[Inverted25]

rocketman5150, have you gotten a chance to teach much, particularly clients with big ambitions for after they complete training? Your opinion might change if you worked with this type of client for a while. Flight instructing is not always about prepping for a check ride and hammering through a rating. It oftentimes involves mentoring.

I'm typing from my iPhone so can't write much right now, but I just wanted to say I've done this sort of thing a lot, and it's almost universally appreciated. By having a clear picture of where the client is going, the instructor can tweak training to be as applicable as possible.

Sometimes I wonder if these arguments are more about semantics than anything else. I agree, I wouldn't "sit a client down" necessarily, as that could come across as demeaning, but I might "insist we set aside time to discuss plans for the future." Does that sound better?

Good advice above. The majority of guys I have trained went on to purchase high performance singles and twins. I always tried to inform them of the true operating costs of owning these planes. What you will find out is that they really don't know what they need most of the time. You need to approach it the right way though. You don't say listen this plane is wrong for you. You offer them alternatives to show what other planes would fit their mission without breaking the bank. It's generally more expensive then they think it will be