Check his face out

I wonder if in that picture, people were on the side holding up "NO PFT!" signs or something, causing the FO's "perplexed" look. If not, then that would be a nice place to stand, no?
 
Seggy said:
In my extremely short airline career, the best Captains I have flown with, learned by instructing at a small FBO in a 'POS 152'.

The less stronger captains that I have flown with went to Gulfstream and TAB!

Flying is a constant learning process, no matter if you have 40 hours ot 4000. Those who have instructed can explain whats going on and look at the big picture and think outside the box. Those who haven't instructed can't think outside the box.
Click to expand...

Seggy I would agree that those that paid to get where they are, usually lack the experiece to make sound choices. Those that have paid there dues in minors (135, freight, CFI etc) for a few thousands hours make much better airlne pilots as they are well rounded.

I am going to have to disagree on the CFI statement. I have flown with several captains that were excellent teachers, pilots, and thought outside the box, and they never instructed. They did however have several thousand hours of experience and worked their way up through the system.
 
DE727UPS said:
"In no way am I a fan of Gulfstream but I dont think its anyones job to expose and exploit the guys that go there"

I disagree. The more we can slam Gulfstream and their scheme, the more negative press they get and make it personal, the more likely it is someone will think twice or question going there.
:yeahthat:
Those that have done it and moved on are a lost cause. It's those who are thinking about it we need to reach and explain our veiw of why it's a bad idea. This site treats Gulfstream much better than Flightinfo or APC, as shown in the above posts. Many professional pilots consider them the laughing stock of the industry, and yet, that hardly seems to effect their placement. As long as Colgan and Pinnacle keep picking up these guys, Gulfstream will prosper and grow. The concept has already grown to include big jets at Jet U.

It could go much farther as there is money to be made with it. That's what scares me....
Click to expand...


The problem is that the airlines are hiring these idiots. If the public only knew who was flying the plane, may be they would be less likely to fly on them. The only way we are going to stop this crap is to get the word out to the newbies wanting to be pilots and to the public. The airlines only listen to $$$. If they get hurt on the bottom line then they may change.

Or it may be like everything else in this industry. It has to be written in blood for things to change. The FAA and or Insurance Companies should step up to the plate. It absolutely terrifies me to have a guy with a few hundred hours and 0 real world experience are being put into 757's, 727's etc. It is bad enough in a B1900 or Saab. I would hate to be a captain that has one of those guys for an FO or FE. It would be like single pilot IFR all over again.

I have seen this jumpseating on Mesa. The captain was doing everything. The FO couldn't even talk on the freakin radio. Of course the capt sets me up in cruise and asks my opinon of PFT. After I totally bash it the Captain agrees and then the FO who is now red tries to defend it. He then insults me by telling I wasted all that time in freight and instructing. You could have just gone to a PFT place and been an airline pilot sooner and gives me the its all about seniority speech and how he is so much farther ahead than the guys that instructed and that he should be captain by 24. The captain seeing that I am ready to tear this guys head off shuts him up in one sentence. Maybe you should just be concerned making to the end of your probationary period.
 
Bandit_Driver said:
The problem is that the airlines are hiring these idiots. If the public only knew who was flying the plane, may be they would be less likely to fly on them. The only way we are going to stop this crap is to get the word out to the newbies wanting to be pilots and to the public. The airlines only listen to $$$. If they get hurt on the bottom line then they may change.

Or it may be like everything else in this industry. It has to be written in blood for things to change. The FAA and or Insurance Companies should step up to the plate. It absolutely terrifies me to have a guy with a few hundred hours and 0 real world experience are being put into 757's, 727's etc. It is bad enough in a B1900 or Saab. I would hate to be a captain that has one of those guys for an FO or FE. It would be like single pilot IFR all over again.

I have seen this jumpseating on Mesa. The captain was doing everything. The FO couldn't even talk on the freakin radio. Of course the capt sets me up in cruise and asks my opinon of PFT. After I totally bash it the Captain agrees and then the FO who is now red tries to defend it. He then insults me by telling I wasted all that time in freight and instructing. You could have just gone to a PFT place and been an airline pilot sooner and gives me the its all about seniority speech and how he is so much farther ahead than the guys that instructed and that he should be captain by 24. The captain seeing that I am ready to tear this guys head off shuts him up in one sentence. Maybe you should just be concerned making to the end of your probationary period.
Click to expand...

I'm so glad I'm in an industry wher we try so hard to build each other up and work as a team :sarcasm:

PFTing is a crap deal, but before we get too deep into the 0 real world experience argument, and finger pointing of 3701, look at some of the worst accidents that have happened (Tenarif, Little Rock, Dallas, DCA, etc).
 
Seggy said:
Flying is a constant learning process, no matter if you have 40 hours ot 4000. Those who have instructed can explain whats going on and look at the big picture and think outside the box. Those who haven't instructed can't think outside the box.
Click to expand...

That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. To imply if your not a CFI you can not think "outside the box" is a pretty rash opinion. For the 10,000th time, I've flown with 1500 hour CFIs that couldnt open a can of soda pop. Everyone is different my friend. Just because you have a CFI doesnt make you a great pilot. It doesnt allow you to think outside the box. If ones intellect inst there, a CFI ticket isnt going to automatically give them brain power. Some of the best brightest airline captains I've ever met were not CFIs. As it has been discussed on here a thousand times, there are good ways to build good experience and time without being a CFI.
 
Bandit_Driver said:
Seggy I would agree that those that paid to get where they are, usually lack the experiece to make sound choices. Those that have paid there dues in minors (135, freight, CFI etc) for a few thousands hours make much better airlne pilots as they are well rounded.

I am going to have to disagree on the CFI statement. I have flown with several captains that were excellent teachers, pilots, and thought outside the box, and they never instructed. They did however have several thousand hours of experience and worked their way up through the system.
Click to expand...

I have never flown with a Captain who didn't either A) Instruct or B) go to a TAB or Gulfstream, but I take your word for it! I completely agree that there are other ways to build the experience without instructing. I'll tell you Single Pilot IFR Freight Dawg type stuff, I give those guys A TON of credit.
 
meritflyer said:
That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. To imply if your not a CFI you can not think "outside the box" is a pretty rash opinion. For the 10,000th time, I've flown with 1500 hour CFIs that couldnt open a can of soda pop. Everyone is different my friend. Just because you have a CFI doesnt make you a great pilot. It doesnt allow you to think outside the box. If ones intellect inst there, a CFI ticket isnt going to automatically give them brain power. Some of the best brightest airline captains I've ever met were not CFIs. As it has been discussed on here a thousand times, there are good ways to build good experience and time without being a CFI.
Click to expand...

A CFI doesn't make you a great pilot, never said that, however a CFI gives you the experience to deal with people, deal with paperwork, gives responsibity, and makes you a better well rounded person to deal with the items that come up in this industry.

I completely agree as well there are other ways to build good experience, but PFT isn't one of them! That my friend is the issue.

PFT ISN'T the way to succeed in this industry!
 
Seggy said:
Those who haven't instructed can't think outside the box.
Click to expand...

I think this was a rash statement. As I mentioned, some of the best and brightest I've ever seen have been non-CFI guys dedicated to educating themselves to a very high level. I cant stand the notion that being a CFI makes you a great pilot or teaches you the experiences you mentioned. I know alot of slacker CFIs who dont utilize their certificate to gain any sort of beneficial experience. Its all about the individual and their dedication, CFI or CP. Life experiences my friend, make you a good pilot.

I do agree that PFT/J isnt the way to gain such experiences.
 
meritflyer said:
I think this was a rash statement. As I mentioned, some of the best and brightest I've ever seen have been non-CFI guys dedicated to educating themselves to a very high level. I cant stand the notion that being a CFI makes you a great pilot or teaches you the experiences you mentioned. I know alot of slacker CFIs who dont utilize their certificate to gain any sort of beneficial experience. Its all about the individual and their dedication, CFI or CP. Life experiences my friend, make you a good pilot.

I do agree that PFT/J isnt the way to gain such experiences.
Click to expand...


Yep, that was poorly worded on my part. I completely agree that being a CFI doesn't make you a great pilot. I agree right dedication and experiences make you a good pilot. There are most certainly other ways to gain the experience than CFIing.
 
meritflyer said:
. Some of the best brightest airline captains I've ever met were not CFIs.
Click to expand...

I agree. In fact, most of the sharpest CA's that I've flown with weren't CFI's. Most came from great lakes and were hired there at 300 TT or so, straight out of flight school. I think it takes a really inteligent and skilled pilot to make that transition, and it shows in the cockpit. I'm personally jealous they were able to go to an airline at that low time.
 
wheelsup said:
I agree. In fact, most of the sharpest CA's that I've flown with weren't CFI's. Most came from great lakes and were hired there at 300 TT or so, straight out of flight school. I think it takes a really inteligent and skilled pilot to make that transition, and it shows in the cockpit. I'm personally jealous they were able to go to an airline at that low time.
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Wait, wait, wait. What you said just flies in the face of what everyone is saying. You can't be a good pilot unless you have been:

A. A CFI for a small part 61 flight school
B. Have flown freight in the most tattered and beaten airplanes on the planet
C. Were a militarty pilot

Total time means nothing, nadda, zip, zilch, unless you have a ton of it and are trying to win an argument with the old tired line of "Well, I've been flying for [insert stupid number here]"
 
Mr_Creepy said:
Oh really? You know some that haven't paid?

I have to call bogus on this one.
Click to expand...

Well, call what you want, you're wrong. I see these guys everday, and I know some on a first name basis. A few Captains were "street" captains, and I know the places where they used to work. So there! :)
 
What the hell are we all arguing about?!! Getting crowded around here with all these soapboxes! :)

Any stereotypes we all seem to hang on to will eventually turn out wrong in one form or another. Just seems a waste of time for these crusades. A good pilot is a good pilot, regardless of their background.

(getting off MY soapbox now;))

-ColM
 
Dugie8 said:
Wait, wait, wait. What you said just flies in the face of what everyone is saying. You can't be a good pilot unless you have been:

A. A CFI for a small part 61 flight school
B. Have flown freight in the most tattered and beaten airplanes on the planet
C. Were a militarty pilot

Total time means nothing, nadda, zip, zilch, unless you have a ton of it and are trying to win an argument with the old tired line of "Well, I've been flying for [insert stupid number here]"
Click to expand...

I agree with Wheelsup. I know a select few of major captains that flew with 300-400 TT for Regions, Colgan, and/or Lakes. These guys had to pay attention and work their hardest simply because they had no other choice but to fly like and know as much as the 2,000 hr. CFI or ATP. I have a very good friend who did the whole Lakes thing after he earned his commercial simply because he couldnt afford his CFI ratings. He is now the Southwest as a captain. He is about as sharp and well rounded as they come.

Dugie, are you saying you cant be a good pilot unless you've been a CFI, freight pilot, or military?
 
"A good pilot is a good pilot, regardless of their background"

I would agree with that but if how they got there is bad for the career and pilots, in general, then I have a problem with it. I don't believe the experience you get as a Gulfstreamer is necessarily a bad thing. I do believe, however, the scheme they have set up is a bad thing and would be happy if it went away a la TAB Express and CAPT.
 
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