Cheating on FAA Exam...

FlyGuy9k4

FlyGuy9k4

Old Skool
So I've come across an issue- There is a new CFI that was hired at the school where I also am a CFI at. Well he doesn't know that when it comes to Aviation, im VERY by the book- Sure everyone breaks an FAR here and there- accidentally busting Class B- or flying through an altitude- or over 250kias below 10k, whatever you want to use as an example... but this is just WRONG, and I'm not sure what I can/should do about this...


I have heard him talking to other CFIs saying that he is going to take his ATP checkride next week. A CFI that knows him personally said, "there is now way you have the cross country time to take that ride yet"

(WITHOUT GETTING INTO THE F.A.R. FIGHT OF IF IT IS 50nm or NOT FOR CROSS COUNTRY FOR AN ATP- I WILL TELL YOU STRAIGHT UP... for 135 mins, its only point to point airport, meaning NO actual distance- for an ATP Certificate- YOU MUST HAVE 50nm plus)... now.. with that said...

The CFI in question- responded to the other guys post with, "ya well"... and walked away as if he didn't care. He was confronted about it and was told that he did not meet the mins from another CFI because he counted every airport to airport flight as a XC, so he has 500hrs+ of XC, but in reality- only maybe 200-300hrs is actual XC over 50nm... So it's my belief he is going to go to "his examiner buddy that he knows personally", fill out an 8710 and be done with it, ILLEGALLY... and knowingly in violation of FAA requirements.

SO, i do NOT want to be a whistle blower, or Mr. Goody Goody here, but as a Professional CFI with high moral character.... how or what should I do... or should I do nothing at all and let Karma take affect???? Can I legally just sit here, knowing this guy is going to intentionally violate an FAR now??- Since I know- could my ratings be a risk if FAA ever investigated if he got caught years later.. etc etc?...see what I mean about this?..

Really need some help on this one- I know its not the first time it has happened, NOR will it be the last- im just curious what others have done in this situation..

Thank You
 
No one wants to be the bad guy but sometimes you have to. If your going to let this slide what else will you let slide in the future? But be damn sure you have your facts straight before going to anyone about this.
 
Inverted25 said:
No one wants to be the bad guy but sometimes you have to. If your going to let this slide what else will you let slide in the future? But be damn sure you have your facts straight before going to anyone about this.
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After two phone calls tonight since I posted the above- I know for a fact that his intentions remain the same.... people I've talked to say let the Karma train run- but I'm still not sure- it's never fun to be the tattle tale... but at the same time- the rest of us that worked truly hard to get it- it's not fair- i know this is not a life's not fair speech- but I'm still out in left field on this one...

I hear what your saying about letting it slide now- what would I let slide later... That's the comment that will most likely cause loss of sleep over... hrmmm
 
First, I'm skeptical this guy is talented enough to pass an ATP ride with an attitude like his, not to mention I question how close to this "DPE buddy" he actually is. Sounds like a lot of hot air.

Second, I'd let karma catch up to him. He sounds like a slimy dude, but I could wear myself out pretty quickly if I confronted every slimy dude I ran across in life.

He may or may not get ahead in the moment. But an attitude like what you're talking about sure won't do well in the industry long term.

I've seen a lot of pilots come and go from various jobs over the years. Most of the real tools like what you're talking about wash out, become miserable, and/or get relegated to crappy jobs. The really talented, straight shooters tend to steadily work their way up the ranks.

Of course there are always exceptions, but not enough to stress about. You'll probably be in a position to throw that guy's resume in the trash ten years from now.
 
If it was me, I'd let him go take the checkride. Give the DPE a chance to catch it, and whip the guy about it. If the DPE doesn't catch it, now he's hung himself as well (the DPE). He probably thinks his friend who is an examiner is going to help him out, when it really isn't going to happen.
 
jrh said:
First, I'm skeptical this guy is talented enough to pass an ATP ride with an attitude like his, not to mention I question how close to this "DPE buddy" he actually is. Sounds like a lot of hot air.

Second, I'd let karma catch up to him. He sounds like a slimy dude, but I could wear myself out pretty quickly if I confronted every slimy dude I ran across in life.

He may or may not get ahead in the moment. But an attitude like what you're talking about sure won't do well in the industry long term.

I've seen a lot of pilots come and go from various jobs over the years. Most of the real tools like what you're talking about wash out, become miserable, and/or get relegated to crappy jobs. The really talented, straight shooters tend to steadily work their way up the ranks.

Of course there are always exceptions, but not enough to stress about. You'll probably be in a position to throw that guy's resume in the trash ten years from now.
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I like this approach- i do know that he's a current CFI/II/MEI- etc, does part time corporate stuff on a lear I think- all part 91, and by part time i do mean- like just started in Jan, and flies once a month... I do think I shouldn't stress about it- but now I just wish I didn't know about it to begin with.. Oh and his DE buddy is a friend of his for afew years etc etc, lives in his neighborhood, knows his parents, etc etc.... so in my head i see the ole, " I assume your logbook and 8710 are correct" question, and that will be the end of it without an inspection... since he "knows" him...

KSCessnaDriver said:
If it was me, I'd let him go take the checkride. Give the DPE a chance to catch it, and whip the guy about it. If the DPE doesn't catch it, now he's hung himself as well (the DPE). He probably thinks his friend who is an examiner is going to help him out, when it really isn't going to happen.
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This is another approach as well- however, If i call the DE out on it afterwards, I know I would be questioned as to why I DID nothing to begin with... so its either I do something before the ride happens, or I do nothing at all, and go with the Karma Train.... Im leaning towards the Karma train for tonight, we'll see in the morning, hope it stays the same....
 
FlyGuy9k4 said:
the rest of us that worked truly hard to get it- it's not fair- i know this is not a life's not fair speech...
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See, that's my point. It doesn't matter who has an ATP or not. An ATP is just a few letters on a piece of plastic.

You've got integrity, honesty, work ethic, and a bunch of other good attributes. Apparently this guy doesn't. You're going to be successful in this industry and sleep well at night. That's all that matters. Screw the other guy...he can do whatever he wants. He'll run his life, you run yours.

The other guy *might* get a bigger better job before you. But that doesn't mean his life is better.

FlyGuy9k4 said:
I hear what your saying about letting it slide now- what would I let slide later... That's the comment that will most likely cause loss of sleep over... hrmmm
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Ehhh...slippery slope fallacy. Letting this issue slide doesn't have any bearing on future actions. You can decide how to handle future issues on a case by case basis.
 
Have you personally gone through this guys log book? If not all this is just hearsay and I suggest letting the DPE work it out. You've got a good rep yourself, that's all that matters.
 
FlyGuy9k4 said:
however, If i call the DE out on it afterwards, I know I would be questioned as to why I DID nothing to begin with.
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No, that's an easy answer. "Because I thought you were going to do your job."

But I'd still go with karma.
 
jrh said:
See, that's my point. It doesn't matter who has an ATP or not. An ATP is just a few letters on a piece of plastic.
You've got integrity, honesty, work ethic, and a bunch of other good attributes. Apparently this guy doesn't. You're going to be successful in this industry and sleep well at night. That's all that matters. Screw the other guy...he can do whatever he wants. He'll run his life, you run yours.

The other guy *might* get a bigger better job before you. But that doesn't mean his life is better.


Ehhh...slippery slope fallacy. Letting this issue slide doesn't have any bearing on future actions. You can decide how to handle future issues on a case by case basis.
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH- ! Best advice i've gotten on here lately-I know it's just a piece of paper with 3 letters- those 3 letters don't make me a better pilot- however it DOES make me more marketable for those "insurance" companies that set the mins to work for most of the Jet operators around here... Very good points, THANK YOU!- I'm rolling on the KARMA TRAIN on this one... thanks for the help!
 
Haha that guy doesnt even meet another prereq for that certficate. "be of good moral character"

Would it be wrong to laugh if he crashed and died only because of his inadequate ability and poor attitude assuming he was the sole occupant in the plane?
 
I think its none of your business actually. Its between him and the examiner to determine if he has the aeronautical experience necissary. I do not understand what you a trying to accomplish here by worrying about the issue. If someone wants to lie on an 8710, thats thier problem... heck even if you did confront the DPE about this, the guy taking to checkride can easily pencil whip his logbook... its just not a battle worth fighting IMO
 
I'm in the "let it alone" crowd. Even if he makes it through his ATP ride there is a good chance his logbook will be reviewed again in the future. If it is and he is caught he will face an emergency revocation of every certificate he holds. The FAA takes a very, very dim view of falsified logbooks. Oh, and if the DPE goes along he will face emergency revocation as well.
http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/3629.PDF
"The matter of the improper log entries was brought to light when respondent applied for a flight check as a Part 135 pilot and her logbook was reviewed."

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/3913.PDF
​
"The falsification charges resulted from the examination of
both respondents' logbooks by FAA aviation inspector Donald
Bennett during the investigation of an accident that occurred on 10 April 1992 involving respondents' Piper Apache aircraft. The inspector testified that the two logbooks were mirror-images of each other for over 200 flights."

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4044.PDF

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4260.PDF

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4260.PDF

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4849.PDF

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4863.PDF
​
"The law judge concluded that the Administrator’s evidence
established that respondent had knowingly falsified the ATP
certificate application and his pilot logbook as alleged in the complaint."

​
 
I am not accepting the Karma ideas offered here. This approach is poor CRM. As pilots, we seek the input of all available resources and desire anyone with information or concerns to make them known. We never know who might have the information that can mitigate a desperate situation.

Suppose the alleged violator proceeds unchecked and, when “Karma catches up with him,” other lives are affected. Then improper behavior is no longer just his problem. Would we unknowingly want our families on the flight? I think not.

If you have legitimate concerns, please confront the supposed violator. Express your doubts and seek closure. If none is provided, indicate that you will be contacting a FAASTeam representative, safety inspector, or the local FSDO to protect the integrity and safety of aviation. Be sure to proceed with great humility and compassion.
 
Pilot Hopeful said:
I am not accepting the Karma ideas offered here. This approach is poor CRM. As pilots, we seek the input of all available resources and desire anyone with information or concerns to make them known. We never know who might have the information that can mitigate a desperate situation.

Suppose the alleged violator proceeds unchecked and, when “Karma catches up with him,” other lives are affected. Then improper behavior is no longer just his problem. Would we unknowingly want our families on the flight? I think not.
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This isn't a desperate situation, nor is it a safety concern. This is just some guy wanting to cut to the front of the line for jobs.

Pilot Hopeful said:
If you have legitimate concerns, please confront the supposed violator. Express your doubts and seek closure. If none is provided, indicate that you will be contacting a FAASTeam representative, safety inspector, or the local FSDO to protect the integrity and safety of aviation. Be sure to proceed with great humility and compassion.
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What would you tell the local FSDO? That you know of a pilot who might try to do something bad in the future? What will the FSDO do about it?

That's like telling the cops you know a guy who has been thinking about shoplifting. There's nothing they can do about it until something actually happens.
 
It would be interesting to just print out those NTSB Opinions that Blackhawk posted and put them in the guy's mailbox. Then see if he goes through with the ride. :pirate:
 
First of all, the guy hasn't done anything yet (except talk it up). He may just be full of hot hair.

Here's the thing: You don't know a thing about what this guy does or doesn't have, or what he has or hasn't done. All you know is what "this guy or that guy said."

Unless you first hand knowledge, and can back it up with documentation, it's neither your business, nor your place to get involved.

If you a right about it, and if he goes through with it, than as others have said, he's likely to hang himself anyway. He's already made the noose, thrown it over the branch, and stepped up on the stool. Do you really think he needs help with the last part?
 
jrh said:
That's like telling the cops you know a guy who has been thinking about shoplifting. There's nothing they can do about it until something actually happens.
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Pre-crime unit??? :sarcasm:

To the OP: I'd just say let it slide. It's a very serious accusation, and if you don't have the actual evidence to back it up, you can end up being the one in trouble.
 
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