Charts (For a 135 op)

[minitour]

One of the soon-to-be (hopefully) 135 ops that I've been talking to has been asking for suggestions on how to save money on charts.

First of all, I'm a big fan of EFBs. They're easy, light, take up minimal space and for the most part, they can contain everything you need. However, for most start-ups (and some established ops) they're cost prohibitive.

I've suggested just getting a subscription for the East and maybe Central US to start and get a trip kit if a west coast trip pops up until business gets going, but they're right...if a trip comes in for departure in an hour for a west coast trip, we don't want to lose it to "no charts". With that in mind, I've been looking into that Air Charts system www.airchart.com

Does anyone here have experience with it? I looked into them a few years ago but nothing too seriously. We went Jepp. The place I'm working with is willing to go Jepp (standard, not Q...which means updates for airports we'll never see) but it seems like for $399/year, not only can they get low enroutes and approach plates but VFR charts and some sort of facility directory. I can't see how that can be beat.

The only thing we'd need then is HI enroutes for one airplane, which can be had from jepp for ~$120/year and NOS is probably about the same.

Thoughts on the airchart system as well as other ways to save money on charting so it can be spent on other things....like increased contract pilot pay, hotel rooms, and increased per diem. The other solution offered by the "owner" is to only hire contract pilots with their own charts/require pilots to acquire their own charts. I don't really like that idea. I've got an EFB, I don't need to keep paper current too.

Thanks in advance.

-mini

 

[cmill]

Ive used their VFR charts before, they get the job done. Havent had any experience with their IFR charts.

Charts are charts, all the info is there, i just didnt care for the spiral bound layout. Im sure someone could get used to it, but after so long using standard paper charts, it just seemed like it took a long time to find what i was looking for. Also, they're pretty bulky; not something you can really throw between the glare shield and the window.

Other than that, they are "neat", and for half the price of the jepps, you could prolly learn to like them. I would really just be more concerned about the bulk more than anything, think of carryin around one of those old school zip up five star binder type deals. That's kinda what its like. Not somethin you wanna pull out every ten minutes.

 

[400A]

Have you priced out just using NOS charts?

I've used both NOS and Jepp (as have most) and honestly, I don't see the difference in cost being worth what Jepp charges.

I can't find it now, but there is/was an EFB out there that would view NOS charts and you can get NOS charts on DVD every update.

We use EFBs with JeppView and I have to say, I am unimpressed with it. I still print the charts for the airports we are going to and have the EFB as a backup.

As far as I can tell, an EFB doesn't have to be anything special. There are plenty of touchscreen tablets out there for less than what you would pay for these "dedicated" EFBs. All you need for your manuals is a PDF viewer and the space to store them on the EFB.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

I used to use their spiral IFR enroute charts . . . LOVED THEM!!!!!

 

[minitour]

Have you priced out just using NOS charts?

Yep. Not much of a difference over Jepps, honestly (for standard paper...q-service is another story altogether). I really wasn't going to get into the details on NOS v. Jepp since they're so closely priced, but I know someone will eventually say Jepps are over-priced so...

For Comparison
Provider - Full US - Lo Enroute - Hi Enroute
Jepp - $838* - Included - $121 = Total $959
NOS - $483 - $324 - $146 = Total $953

*Revision service. You pay another $330-something if you just want to get a new content every year vs. doing the dreaded checklist.

For half of that, they can just do the air charts thing.

I can't find it now, but there is/was an EFB out there that would view NOS charts and you can get NOS charts on DVD every update.

Most of the standard touch-screen tablet PC/EFBs will do that and you order the DVDs right from NACO if you like. That was looked into as a possible option/solution.

We use EFBs with JeppView and I have to say, I am unimpressed with it. I still print the charts for the airports we are going to and have the EFB as a backup.

Did you switch over to the "chart viewer" mode or are you still able to pull up the enroute charts on flightdeck? I changed mine over to just the terminal charts and honestly prefer that MUCH more than being able to switch back and forth with the enroute data.

As far as I can tell, an EFB doesn't have to be anything special. There are plenty of touchscreen tablets out there for less than what you would pay for these "dedicated" EFBs. All you need for your manuals is a PDF viewer and the space to store them on the EFB.

It's not that they're looking at the "specifically EFB" units. I wanted them to pull the trigger on the cheap fuji units (for $600-ish) but they wanted to wait until our next meeting with the FSDO to pull the trigger on charts. Right now, my EFB does fine for the part 91 flying I'm doing for them so we roll with no paper on board.

Anywho, I'm really looking for people with personal experiences using the product. I've used the VFR book once for one flight and we used it for no more than about 30 seconds, so I never had to flip pages to find information or anything.

Is the update service accurate, on time, easy as they say, etc?

Other thoughts or suggestions? I don't think the LIDO charts are a good option (if you're thinking that) due to 1) fleet size and 2) aircraft size. These are smaller planes here. The biggest thing going on the certificate is a small turboprop.

-mini

 

[deadstick]

I can't find it now, but there is/was an EFB out there that would view NOS charts and you can get NOS charts on DVD every update.

http://www.sportys.com/chartviewer/

 

[AviatorGator]

What do your op specs say for this 135 op? We are prohibited from using EFBs as primary for charts.

We use NOS for all the approach books and AFD's. We have at least one book for every state in the 48 contiguous and every aircraft has every state east of the Mississippi. We also use we use NOS low charts and Jepp Hi charts.

When I first started with this company we had all Jepp. We found the NOS/Jepp combo to be cheaper than having a ton of Jepp books that needed to be updated all the time with various books in various aircraft. Now, every 56 days we toss all the old NOS charts and replace them with the new ones. Lost pages are a thing of the past.

FWIW, we do have JeppView on one of the computers in the office. It's cool but until we have EFB's in the cockpit, printing individual Jepp plates for one airport is a waste of paper and time consuming.

 

[minitour]

What do your op specs say for this 135 op?

We're in the certification process, so what they (the financially interested parties) are trying to do is make the smartest decision to get the certificate up and running and not have to spend a ton on something that doesn't need a ton spent on it while not compromising safety or legality. I think they'd rather spend the money on flight crews, maintenance, aircraft details and advertising. Things that will directly impact the profitability of the company. They don't think (and neither do I) that the type of charting solution will directly impact the profitability.

If that means EFB, they'll do it...but they'd like to avoid doing that at this point due to the acquisition and start-up cost. I've been tasked with finding the smartest solution (financially) and have narrowed it down to these three options: Jepp, NOS and AirCharts.

Having used both NOS and Jepp, I prefer the Jepp product simply for placement of the charts in (IMO) a more logical order within the binders and what I feel is a little more user-friendly chart layout/information display. I'm not a fan of bound NOS books...not at all. That said, they're usable.

Again, I'm not interested in a NOS v. Jepp debate. At this point, they're willing to spend the extra $6/year for the Jepps if it's either NOS or Jepp, but if they can chart two planes for the cost of one using the airchart thing, I think they'd prefer to do just that. I know the airchart thing uses a "NOS" format to the charts, but it seems that the update process is a touch better for what we hope will be a busy operator than pitching the whole mess of charts and putting new ones on the plane every couple of months. I'm really not interested in doing paper updates every 2 weeks on 4 airplanes' worth of Jepps, but will if I need to. I guess for me the biggest concern is user friendly-ness and update ease.

-mini

 

[AviatorGator]

Fair enough, I really don't care one way or the other (Jepp or NOS) so long as all the appropriate charts are in the airplane and properly ordered. Jepp clearly provides a better product but without the Q service they proved to be a bit unruly to say the least. At least with the bound books the pages aren't going anywhere but it's still a pain every two months come update time, especially when some of the aircraft are away from home.

So long as you guys get EFB's added to your op specs that sounds awesome, especially if your company is willing to pay for it. I'm curious if there are any 135 operators on JC that could chime in and tell us if paper is still required to be in the airplane as a backup. My guess is paper would still be required to be on the airplane under most circumstances.

 

[minitour]

Fair enough, I really don't care one way or the other (Jepp or NOS) so long as all the appropriate charts are in the airplane and properly ordered.

Same situation here. I'll use either, though I prefer Jepps. In the end, as long as they're there and current, I don't really mind either I guess.

I just want something that I'm not going to hate (since I'll be doing 99% of the flying at first when I can) and, if it saves the bosses-men money I'll probably get a little kickback...bonus!

Jepp clearly provides a better product but without the Q service they proved to be a bit unruly to say the least.

That's for damn sure. I'm not really a huge fan of Q service either, to be quite honest. The plane I fly now...ugh...where do I start? We've got one guy that just files the updates in the binders (takes the packet and changes the charts like a standard revision...what's the point?) and another guy that just opens the envelope and puts it in binder 8. Including all of the stuff that goes in #1. Again, what's the point?

My favorite...the boss-man is "on" when the revisions are due, which is perfect. He gets the envelopes at home and takes them to the airplane and you'd think....it's Q service...just slide the charts in and be done, right?

No. I climbed in today and found the envelope just shoved in the chart closet. Again, what's the point?

At least with the bound books the pages aren't going anywhere but it's still a pain every two months come update time, especially when some of the aircraft are away from home.

It's not even that which bothers me. I just normally like having a representation of the procedure available in front of me without the book closing on itself all the time. I can't tell you how many times in training at Airnet that happened to me. I'd look down to confirm the missed instructions.....and it was a different airport, city, approach, etc that the book had closed to. One time it flipped all the way to the departures...or arrivals...or whatever is up front. That was fun...NOT!

So long as you guys get EFB's added to your op specs that sounds awesome, especially if your company is willing to pay for it.

They're interested, but at this point they'd like to see some money flowing IN (even if it isn't a profit, which they don't expect at first) before they plunk that kinda coin down to go completely paperless.

I'm curious if there are any 135 operators on JC that could chime in and tell us if paper is still required to be in the airplane as a backup. My guess is paper would still be required to be on the airplane under most circumstances.

According to several I've talked to and the guy handling our certification (who oddly enough won't be our POI after all is said and done ), normally you keep paper for 6 months, tell your POI how it went and then he says "okay...paperless" if there are no problems. Then you have a shredding/burning party and get the plane re-weighed so you can add another 80# in the cabin. It's a liberating feeling...or so I'm told.

My recommendation was to have 3 units on board. Two plugged in and one just left turned off but charged (and current) and shoved in a closet somewhere. Then have a bluetooth, battery printer. So if SHTF, you could print off a page or two real quick. They seemed to like that idea (the bosses-men).

-mini