Charging for ground, two students.

crazyjeep

Well-Known Member
Question to my fellow CFI's. How do you charge for ground. A question has come up on whether to charge a student sitting in on another students ground.

The reason I ask this is I had a student sit in on another CFI student's ground. At the end they were both were charged for their time. Granted my student did record the ground, but from my understanding was not actively participating other than being a fly on the wall. The student was surprised to be charged at the end of the ground session

If you have two students in a ground, and one is just watching, do you charge both for the ground? Do you charge the full rate? .

I don't think this is right or wrong, I just want to get a general consensus from my peers on how you would handle the situation.
 

MoMatt

Well-Known Member
Are they both working towards a certificate and at the same place in the syllabus / training?

If the guy "sitting in" is a student pilot sitting in on an instrument lesson, he's not going to gain much. I wouldn't charge him.

If both are working on a private pilot cross country lesson, give them both a deal at 60-75% of the ground instruction rate. Everybody wins.

Either way, as a professional CFI this should be brought up right away before the clock starts so that everyone involved is clear.
 

Krieger

Well-Known Member
Here's how I do it.

If they are both participating and being mentored they both split the cost. They split it because my time mentoring them is split, but they both benefit from the lecture.

If there is a student observing, I won't charge. But I expect the observing student to "just observe".
 

drunkenbeagle

Gang Member
I've never charged anyone for observing. Would just piss them off, not worth it for a few bucks.

If you have two students at about the same level, I'd ask them if they want to split the rate or get a decent discount, if it was likely to be more often than a one-off thing.
 

Hammertime

Well-Known Member
Totally not ethical. And a failure of this CFI to perform his or her duties in that respect. My take: If you are charging them both ground, split it down the middle, as neither are getting your full attention as they deserve. If the student is just sitting in the corner observing for whatever reason, don't charge them.
 

gotWXdagain

Polished Member
If doing a lesson in a 141 syllabus, and they both are on the same lesson, Charge both for equal time, and provide the instruction to both. If it's part 61 and one student just wants to observe, grey area.

In either case, as always, discuss with both students prior to going on the clock. Never spring it on the "observing" student at the end of the day.
 

Nihon_Ni

Well-Known Member
I have never billed anyone who didn't expect to be billed for my time. If someone is just observing, let him, regardless of what type of school, phase of training, etc. Handing someone a bill for watching someone else's lesson is completely unethical.
 

Jet

Well-Known Member
If I had a school charge me for sitting in and observing a lesson I would find another flight school without hesitation.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
I have never billed anyone who didn't expect to be billed for my time. If someone is just observing, let him, regardless of what type of school, phase of training, etc. Handing someone a bill for watching someone else's lesson is completely unethical.
I sort of understand what you're saying, and to be fair, whenever I pin down my - or any other CFI at my school - to ask a question or two, I usually go ahead and pay for .2, .3 or whatever of their time to ensure they are appropriately compensated - I do not, at all, ever, want to abuse the student/teacher relationship because I may be the teacher some day.

But - here's the thing. CFIs and students are transacting knowledge, right? If a second person is getting that knowledge transfer without paying for it, is that really fair to the CFI or the school? How about the student?

If I was a paying student, and my CFI was allowing another student pursuing the same ticket to "observe" in my lesson for free, I'd get a little annoyed. Why should that guy get the benefit of knowledge just because I'm the one paying? Am I only paying for the privilege of asking questions?

Maybe I just don't understand how these things work yet.
 

Rotor2Wing

Unapologetically American
I sort of understand what you're saying, and to be fair, whenever I pin down my - or any other CFI at my school - to ask a question or two, I usually go ahead and pay for .2, .3 or whatever of their time to ensure they are appropriately compensated - I do not, at all, ever, want to abuse the student/teacher relationship because I may be the teacher some day.

But - here's the thing. CFIs and students are transacting knowledge, right? If a second person is getting that knowledge transfer without paying for it, is that really fair to the CFI or the school? How about the student?

If I was a paying student, and my CFI was allowing another student pursuing the same ticket to "observe" in my lesson for free, I'd get a little annoyed. Why should that guy get the benefit of knowledge just because I'm the one paying? Am I only paying for the privilege of asking questions?

Maybe I just don't understand how these things work yet.
I kinda see what your saying about this but I have seen the workings of over a dozen formal 141 schools and aviation colleges and its something that I have seen at everyone of them. Usually the CFI will ask if its ok if Bob sits in and listens to our discussion. Its usually students either ahead of you or behind you. I see no problem with it unless I was the one paying and not getting the attention of the lesson. I have sit in on several group ground schools and one on one sessions. I have also returned the favor. I have never seen this happen with 2 students that are in the same general area in their training. Its usually a Private student sitting in on Instrument or Commercial ground. Or a CFI student sitting in on a lesson to help learn how to teach.

I know there will always be someone who would/will try to abuse the situation but the CFI shouldn't ever let it happen. As some have said above I would be without a doubt ticked off if I got a bill for sitting in on a ground session. I have no use for anyone that nickels and dimes people to death. I had it happen one time and it was the last. I stopped a CFI in the hall on the way to an aircraft to ask if he could verify that the last flight he did that the squawk had been resolved. He had the nerve to charge me .1 ground time for that!

I personally think that flight training should be done in pairs of students instead of one on one. I really think swapping out and observing each other has a very high learning value. The Army has been doing the stick buddy thing for a while and it works great.
 
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