Charging CFIs For Instruction Toward Additional Instructor Ratings

[PhotoPilot]

Just found out that my current school gives no breaks to employees who are getting their additional CFI ratings. Is is normal to charge an employee the full rate for the planes plus the current instructional rate of $45/hr. Just curious because this does not sound right to me.

I think it's a little different when you sign up for a program that includes the CFI, CFII, and MEI ratings. You've already commited to getting those ratings and if the flight school hires you after CFI but before CFII or MEI, that's a great bonus for you and no reason to lower their rates.

Besides, you're flight school is so busy that there's no reason for them not to charge . . . if you refused to pay, there'd be someone else ready to jump at the chance!

 

[Grabo172]

I've kept my opinions to myself for a while on this matter. But here's what went down for my CFII...

The owner of the school actually footed the bill for me to get my CFII. Gave me the airplane time for free and one of our CFIIs did the instruction... So ,as for the reduced rate debate, I'm all for it... after all, the school will have a more marketable CFI when it's said and done and will be making more money... like I said, I got all the airplane time for free...

I offered to pay for the instruction time (we did about 3 hours of dual) but he refused my money... so I decretely billed myself for a couple hours of his time and if I ever get to get out on the town with him, I'll pick up his tab. Most of the time we did anything was when he and I were both without a student on the schedule for a couple hours.

Of course, I had to pay for the examiner...

Next goal.. getting my Multi and MEI... I'm not expecting the same deal, but won't refuse it if it's offered...

 

[jtrain609]

To me, there is a HUGE difference between an employer paying for a rating and asking a co-worker to do it for free.

At the same time, though, I have a few friends I'd hook up with a few hours of free instruction for their next instructor rating if they needed it. Mind you it's a pretty short list, but there are a few people that can pay me in beer for all I care. In those cases, it's not an issue of not taking being an instructor seriously; it's that I believe in helping good friends out when they need it. You know, being a socialist and all.

 

[sopdan]

Boy, it sure is nice to work for a school that will pay for my additional ratings (fully)... and the best part is that the CFI giving you the additional training gets paid their normal rate.

That would never happen at my alma mater.

 

[MultiComm]

That's understandable, but before you get too upset you should realize that in most cases the money that the school takes from the student pay for things like office space, advertising, insurance, etc., and those expenses still exist even if the instructor is willing to work for free......

Thank you for shedding the light of reality to this conversation. My flight school operates solely on

1)the money above what is paid to the instructor (anywhere from 20-28 dollars per hour depending on instructor pay at a billable rate of $40 per hour)

2)approx. 20% of the aircraft rates. The rest goes to the aircraft owners since we operate off of leased aircraft.

So this adds up to about 30% of what is actually billed out to the student. From this comes ALL incurred expenses.

Insurance, Rent, Utilities, Admin...all of this is expensive. The money has to come from somewhere. A/C rates are as high as ever due to fuel cost so unless you want a pay cut then I hope you can understand a little increase in rates without an increase in pay. If the business goes down the crapper you go with it.

By the way...as far as I am aware, our owner does not take home a check each week. It is put all back into the company to make sure the business survives.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

MultiComm, you're absolutely correct! Unfortunately, most CFI's don't have a clue what goes on behind the doors at most flight schools!

The problem with pilots running business is that they make pretty bad business-folks!

 

[ffccfi]

The problem with pilots running business is that they make pretty bad business-folks!

The problem with people running business that lack people skills is that they forget what makes the company run...the people that work for it.

Now I don't know what you might have as a background in business or where you may have attended business school, but from my education from one of the top 50 business schools in the nations where were given many examples of approaches to management. We found through many case studies that those companies which spent the most money on taking care of their employees had some of the highest productivitiy rates and profits.

How can this relate to flight schools? HUH....treat your people well and they will work hard for you. So you don't charge your own employees for instructions for getting their CFII (hell, it is a bonus for you to have them so you can market yourself as having CFIIs) but in the long run these instructors will work hard for you because you have done something to help them out.

This is the problem with many of the marketing employees for flight schools, they get so caught up in selling the HUGE PROGRAMS that they forget that maybe if I get them in for the private then we will be able to hook them for the instrument and then the commercial. Again these kind of people are the ones who lack people skills.

No instructor has a problem paying for airplane time. We all realize that planes cost money to operate. There is no excuse though for charging your own employees full rate for instruction time. Attitude reflects leadership...boss! If you want your instructors to work hard for you, then treat them well.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

There is no excuse though for charging your own employees full rate for instruction time. Attitude reflects leadership...boss! If you want your instructors to work hard for you, then treat them well.

LMAO - nice cut, but it kinda missed me - doesn't apply to me!! I don't make those decisions at my flight school. Good attempt, though!

One thing to point out - I'm NOT my flight school. I may be the Ass Chief (as I've been called . . .), but we aren't one and the same.

My point is that if somebody wants to get training for me, I want to get paid for it! I don't care where the money comes from. If my flight school wants to comp other CFI's, then fine - that's their money. However, I'm not giving huge chunks of time away.

By asking a CFI to give their instruction away, you're asking them to work for free. That just doesn't go well with me.

 

[ffccfi]

My point is that if somebody wants to get training for me, I want to get paid for it! I don't care where the money comes from. If my flight school wants to comp other CFI's, then fine - that's their money. However, I'm not giving huge chunks of time away.

Again....I think people are missing my point. I don't think CFI's mind paying the instructor for their time. This means paying your your rate of instruction per hour BUT the flight school should not be profiting off this. What the deal between the instructor and the instructor doing the training is solely between them. If they work out a deal where it is free....GREAT! I think that's the way it should be, but I don't mind paying either because I know you have to eat and pay rent. I personally would find one who is willing to do it for a minimal cost, but the flight schools tend to get in the way. Again I'm arguing the the policy of a flight school charging and making a profit not the instructor making money for his or her time spent with me.

 

[Goonie]

Again....I think people are missing my point. I don't think CFI's mind paying the instructor for their time. This means paying your your rate of instruction per hour BUT the flight school should not be profiting off this. What the deal between the instructor and the instructor doing the training is solely between them. If they work out a deal where it is free....GREAT! I think that's the way it should be, but I don't mind paying either because I know you have to eat and pay rent. I personally would find one who is willing to do it for a minimal cost, but the flight schools tend to get in the way. Again I'm arguing the the policy of a flight school charging and making a profit not the instructor making money for his or her time spent with me.

As I understand where your coming from the flight school buisness is a different monster than others. I am fortunate to work for a flight school that has a great staff of employees and a even better owner.

That being said CFI's our like temp employees not all but most. It is hard from a ownner/managment standpoint to give out a helping hand to these guys when they talk about other jobs mins and surf regional website's. It is very disrespectful to the buisness and the customer's overhearing the conversation. Lets face it most, not all CFI's are there to build time and leave as soon as possible, not saying their is anything wrong with that its just the nature of the beast. At the very least look for other jobs at home quietley like you would at any other profession. Personally I dont think you should apply for a CFI position till you hold all three ratings. We are fortunate right now we have a great group of guys and girls, but we have had our share of bad apples.

I think that their has been alot of cracker jack CFI's coming out of the industry. I think CFI rides should be twice as hard to weed these people out. I blame these super fast, dixie cup, 2 week wonder CFI courses.I guess Thats a topic for a different thread.

Hey, flight schools are in the buisness to make money? whoudathunkit!

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Hey, flight schools are in the buisness to make money? whoudathunkit!

Well, that's just crazy talk!!
:whatever:

If my flight school stopped doing things to make money, I think I'd quit.

 

[Goonie]

BTW, if you think your flight school should give you a handout, go apply at Best Buy, Walmart, or a car dealership they will give you an employee discount but they are still making alot of money off you. Why should a flight school be any different?

Jeez, you pay 40k for flight training, and your *****in about a couple hundred bucks.

Reminds of the guy who pays $600 to go on a cross country an whines about paying 8 bucks for a chart that might save thier ass.

 

[Gonzo]

In a perfect world ffccfi would be right. At the flight school I go to the flight instructors only have to pay for the fuel for the planes. All add-on instruction is done by the owner free of charge. The way he looks at it is a gives him a more marketable CFI. He has a huge advantage because the school flies older planes that are paid off. I know he barely breaks even between fuel and maintenance on the planes. The school's profit comes from the percentage of the introduction fee that is not given to the instructors.
I am guessing and I don't know this for sure but a lot of the schools with new fleets are probably losing money on the rental fees and need to cover that loss with some of the profits from the fees charged by the instructors.

 

[ffccfi]

BTW, if you think your flight school should give you a handout, go apply at Best Buy, Walmart, or a car dealership they will give you an employee discount but they are still making alot of money off you. Why should a flight school be any different?

How about this you get CFIs that don't get their II. Now you are down the creek without a paddle. What a wonderful business move!

You just proved the point. These companies (which are very sucessful) offer DISCOUNTS. HUMMMMMM, that couldn't be what I was talking about here. Not charging the FULL price for instruction. Either people can't read or just don't understand English.

Now I just want to add that I'm glad my boss is a nice guy, unlike some of the other owners on here! I couldn't ask for a better place to work. They do charge for instruction but they also cut us some nice deals (DISCOUNTS) so it all balances out. I'm more than happy to give him my money. I started this thread because one of my friends school charges too and now I see what other CFIs are *****in about! It's not the money....its the people they work for!

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Now I just want to add that I'm glad my boss is a nice guy, unlike some of the other owners on here!

Do we have any flight school owners on the board? I'd really love to hear their take on it (i.e. I'm not a flight school owner . . .).

 

[Goonie]

My point exactly. I do not have a problem paying the instructor for their time, I do have a problem with the flight school profiting off of their own employees.

I think I read just fine dude! Think before you hit submit reply.

I have no problem with flight instructors getting a DISCOUNT , its pretty customary for a buisness to do that. But they should still make a profit they have a family to support. Its buisness 101 the bottom line.

 

[ffccfi]

But they should still make a profit they have a family to support. Its buisness 101 the bottom line.

Thats great for business 101 but what about human resource management 101? Something some of your are forgetting is treating your people well, this includes not treating them like a customer but at a more personal level. I know you argue that you don't own the flight schools, but the other management affects the atmosphere of the working environment.

Plus when you don't have any CFIIs you wont be making nearly as much profit! When Best Buy loses an employee, they just hire someone else! I don't see CFIIs just lineing up to work!

 

[slowandlow]

I work for the government and I don't get a discount on my taxes...Ok now I'm starting to get pissed off. I hate this job.:banghead:

 

[mtsu_av8er]

I know you argue that you don't own the flight schools, but the other management affects the atmosphere of the working environment.

Management certainly does affect the atmosphere!

At my flight school, I have an agreement with one of the owners for aircraft rental at an incredible rate for CFI's! That's how I've "helped" these CFI's. As far as instruction? I want to get paid if I'm training a CFI. I also don't encourage the CFI's that work for me to gete paid what they're worth.

Plus when you don't have any CFIIs you wont be making nearly as much profit!

But we DO have CFII's!

When Best Buy loses an employee, they just hire someone else! I don't see CFIIs just lineing up to work!

You don't see them? If every CFI at my flight school quit tomorrow monring, I could be fully manned by tomorrow afternoon. That's just the market. I get 2 resumes per day.

Am I saying that I don't value the CFI's? No! I vlue them more than you could imagine! They are an extremely important asset, and I do whatever I can to take care of them! That being said, flight schols can't afford to give their product away any more than any other business!!!

 

[Goonie]

Thats great for business 101 but what about human resource management 101? Something some of your are forgetting is treating your people well, this includes not treating them like a customer but at a more personal level. I know you argue that you don't own the flight schools, but the other management affects the atmosphere of the working environment.

I manage a flight school and the owner in my opinion is the best in the game, he makes it feel like a family enviroment, and will bend over backward to help any employee/customer. That being said he didnt make a one airplane operation into a multi million dollar flight school by handing out ratings to people, he is a buisness man with bills like everyone else. He understands keeping CFI's happy, and they are. He also understands those same CFI's will be gone soon and have no quams leaving him at a drop of a hat for a tubine job. Its a understood thing in this buisness.


[/QUOTE]
Plus when you don't have any CFIIs you wont be making nearly as much profit! When Best Buy loses an employee, they just hire someone else! I don't see CFIIs just lineing up to work![/QUOTE]

Like Lloyd said we get resume's everyday and if they dont have their CFII then we dont even look at it twice. If I worked at a hospital and told them "Hey, I need heart surgery ya'll are going to do it for free aint ya?" They would laugh in my face. Hey at least we dont laugh in your face we let you work off your debt.