Changing over at 39...update

[jerrywhite7]

you guys make some great points here! Really you do. And in a fair and perfect world it all makes sense. However, in the world that I live in, I get a call . . . (after a day of nearly dying several times from students while in the Texas Heat in a tomahawk)

Capt'n -"Hey, I have a day trip tomorrow, would you like to right seat with me?"
Me- "Hey sure, sounds good, tomorrow is my day off, what time we leaving and where are we going?"
Capt'n-"Headed to for a quick trip to DFW. Leaving at 9 am, back by around 4pm."
Me- "Sounds good, is there any compensation?"
Capt'n-"No, but I see it that your getting free time in a Twin turbo prop. If you dont think that is fair, then I understand. Would one of the other flight instructors like to fly with me tomorrow?"

So no matter how fair it is or isnt, that is how it goes. (at least for me) I mean I could do an ATP and pay $25 large for the time, or fly on my days off or re-arrange my instructing schedule to fly. HHHHMMMMMMMMMM

So now a few months later (sitting in CO on a trip) I have full health insurance, ncie salary, great capt'n who allows me to fly every other leg and teach me, I'm logging PIC time and living the dream that I have always wanted. WHY, because of attitude . . . I showed that I really wanted the job! That I could be counted on! Could I have done that while being paid. . . SURE!! in "my" situation, was that an option . . .no!
So was 6-8 flights that I flew for "free" worth it? yes, because I have made that up and more!

I love the discussion on this. . . you guys really do make valid points. And I do agree, if we are professional pilots, we should be compensated for our time. And yes, that compensation can be more than money.
When my capt'n and I take our plane up so that I can do touch and Go's or single engine work that cost a LOT an hour! So in that way, I am being paid back for the "free flights".

I think looking back, however, that I would have discussed some of this with my capt''n before hand. Hind sight 20/20. When I'm a capt'n someday, and I have a low time guy looking to get sometime, I will line out the compensation with them.

Just remember, (at least for me) when you get that "call" . . . you really want the job and experience. It is tough to say anything but what time do you want me there and what's the dress code?

:clap:
by the way, YES it is ok to start a new career in aviaiton. (back to the spirit of the thread)

 

[Zero1Niner]

In my cause (which is where I am comming from, and I can really only speak about that) is that I went into a small flight department in which the company owns the airplane, passenger is the boss of the company and they were "scouting" for an FO to hire. (yes, I did get the job and do get paid!)

Personally, I dont have a problem with this. I would have done the same. I certainly understand the principle that is being fought for, but at the end of the day, its all about doing what it takes to get the job. There is the way things should be, and the way things are, but at some point each individual needs to make the decision to either stand up for the greater good, or do whatever necessary to reach their own personal goals.

Glad you landed the job Jerry.

 

[jskibo]

This is something I have been giving some thought to......

I'm 42 now. Always wanted to fly but typically ran out of time, money or both. Spent a lot stopping and starting training between 18 and 24 and never got very far. When I was in the Navy I flew a lot at the flying club (PA-28-140 was $28 wet then, C310 @ $90), but didn't get my license before getting out. An ex destroyed that log book with 80+ hours in it.

I went to SIUC and dual majored (Flight and Aviation Management) for awhile. Finished the Private and was building time for Commercial and was offered an internship (Co-Op) at then McDonnell-Douglas, so I dropped the Flight Major and finished the BS in Management. Been with Boeing since the merger and while the money is great, here I am almost 15 years later sitting in meeting after meeting wishing I took the other road.

So Saturday, after a 9 year hiatus on flying, I'm starting back to work on my instrument and plan on continuing through CFII / MEI. I'll see what happens after that. Maybe it will just be logging instructing hours, maybe I will take the full plunge. The wife makes more than me and she's just about done with Law School as well.

Though I'm not ready to let go of the secutrity blanket yet, its good to hear others have done so!! Maybe I'll join you soon......

 

[jerrywhite7]

Hey thanks for sharing. This is a great place to get different ideas and find out from folks who have gone or who is going through the same thing that you are going through right now. Two years ago I was thinking of going for my life long dream of flying. Today I am happy to say, I am living out that dream. My biggest suggestion is to make sure your other half fully understands what will/could happen to you. Be real with her, because this is going to be a huge sacrifice for her as well. At best you will have low pay and long hours as a flight instructor. Your first job after that will be low pay and long hours as well. It will take years (if ever) to make any type of "real" money, but if (like you stated) your wife makes good money then only a small change in lifestyle might have to be made.

I saved up so that I could have approx. ones years salary in the bank too lessen the blow to my family (i wife, 2 kids).

This is a career that is easier for you in some ways (low pay, gone alot) because it is "your" dream that is being lived out . . . having a family that supports you can make all the difference in the world!

My advice, go get that instrument ticket (the PHD of aviation) make sure you still want to do this . . . Keep looking and posting here at Jetcareers . . . and DONT go to a excellerated program right now . . . they cost too much money, you'd have to give up your great paycheck, and right now there are really no jobs to "accerate" too!

Thanks for posting! Good luck!

 

[jskibo]

...My advice, go get that instrument ticket (the PHD of aviation) make sure you still want to do this . . . Keep looking and posting here at Jetcareers . . . and DONT go to a excellerated program right now . . . they cost too much money, you'd have to give up your great paycheck, and right now there are really no jobs to "accerate" too!

Thanks for posting! Good luck!

Thanks! I'm surrounded by Sporty's IFR video and books right now, trying to feel better about Saturday.

No fast track course for me, as you said, I like the check for now. Only thing I had considered was an ATP quick Multi (10 hour one). Not sure of the opinions on that route.

 

[derg]

Train during the downturns, flourish during the upturns. That's always worked pretty well for me during my career if it's something you really want to do.

It's kind of like sitting on the beach with a surfboard. If you want to catch a wave, but you're doing it from the safety of the shoreline, by the time the wave comes and you're still on the beach, it's already too late.

But, as always, your mileage may vary!

 

[jerrywhite7]

Train during the downturns, flourish during the upturns. That's always worked pretty well for me during my career if it's something you really want to do.

It's kind of like sitting on the beach with a surfboard. If you want to catch a wave, but you're doing it from the safety of the shoreline, by the time the wave comes and you're still on the beach, it's already too late.

But, as always, your mileage may vary!

Agreed!

 

[toproy]

:beer:
Well, what can I say. I guess it would be a waste of everyone's time here to talk about "the dream" since I am sure 99% know it far too well.

I am 35 and I am NOT considering a career change. I will do it, come rain or shine.

Many obstacles have gone in my way since age 15 when I knew I wanted this for a living. My childhood friend who begged my mother to help me get into the academy with him when we were fresh out of high school (to no avail due to 100s of fears from my misinformed mother), has been a CAPTAIN of an Airbus 318 for two years now.

With only 5 previous years of experience as a FO in a 727. Yes... luck does happen, but if you don't buy the lotto ticket... guess what?

You will never win.

I see my friend sporting the uniform of an airline that is about to start international flights jumping from being a small regional. Who do you think has all the prospects of maybe someday becoming chief pilot and instructor?

My friend who is only 34!!!

While I watch from the sidelines? I don't think so!

Realistically, I might never get to be a captain of an A318... who cares?

I have been a software engineer, I have a private office, with all kinds of toys, I come and go as I please, I change cars every two years, buy my clothes at Neiman Marcus. Yes, I make more than my friend the Captain (he is an a Mexican airline), but so what?

So what if he drives a Ford Focus and I drive an M3?

At 35 I have learned that money is not all when you have a higher calling.

My wife supports me on my decision 120% she is even willing to foot the bill. Wonderful woman, but honestly, as harsh as I might sound, who needs a partner who doesn't share your dreams?

Unless the dream was becoming a drug dealer of course.

So what if one gets the chance to operate as a FO for free?

YES! you are getting a lot from it, instruction from an experienced Captain, flight time in a very expensive equipment. Guess what? The real world has something similar for almost every career out there worth for crap... it is called internship!

Or you think that doctors and nurses enjoy having to work for an extremely reduced pay rate for many years (in the doctors case) before earning a real living?

My other good friend, ex roomate, is a PhD in nuclear physics... he is 200,000 in student loan debt, he worked crap jobs up until 2 years ago and now makes over a quarter million a year.

It is called... paying your dues. In my PhD friend's case... he paid his dues for almost half of his life. He is over 40 and just now starting to live. Oh.. and he is paraplegic... oh, and he has a Private Pilot's license...

No excuses my fellow dreamers. "You have a dream? You have to protect it, people will tell you you can't do something just because you can not do them themselves" - Pursuit of happiness.

 

[jerrywhite7]

I would agree . . . neverf give up on your dreams. One thing about aviation is that pretty much everybody has a "story". Most people have had to pay dues to get to where they want to be in aviation.
I was a poor kid being raised by a single blind mom for my entire life . . . grew up in and out of foster homes . . . and barely finished high school. But hard work and determination and a clear goal can get you far in this career and other dreams in ones life!

All you career changers and career changer want-to-bes dont give up on your dreams of aviation. You might find that while talking to your friends that they might even tell you that going into something like aviation is stupid and a dumb idea. DONT LISTEN TO THEM!!! I had so many people tell me to just suck it up, do my job and be happy to have a career that I could support my family. Now that I am living my dream, many of these same people tell me that they are really jealouse of me! People are not used to other people around them going for their dreams. And once you do, you will find that many people will live through you while you are training, flight instructing, and especially once your hired for your job!

Keep the faith folks, stick around jetcareers for some great advice!!!!

 

[Mike H]

How many greeters at WalMart do it for free to eventually get a job as a cashier?

Don't be giving WalMart any ideas. I may need to apply there.

Back when I was still a Realtor®, all the older agents and company managers were always preaching stuff to the rest of us like " Charge the commission you're worth", and " You'll never get anywhere cutting your (commission)rates" Well, all that's true, up to a point, but 6% of nothing is still nothing and those old goats would cut their own commissions in a heartbeat because some income is always better than no income.

 

[jerrywhite7]

the way I see it, there are three camps. . . for that first job or build time to that first job (after flight instructing)


1) Pay for your first job. They are everywhere out there . .for $10,000 up to $35,000 you (yes you) can be an FO on a beech 1900 or Metroliner, or even a jet!!! WOW . . . Good times. But for some people, that money is not an issue. Mom and dad are loaded, or maybe they were carerr changers and have lots of extra money sitting around and dont mind spending it to fly! More power to you guys!

2) Get the job or experience by flying for free. This might hose others around you because you just "under cut" the market. Or maybe the oppertunity of being paid is just not an option. There are a million reasons why this may happen. However, IF you can be paid. . be paid!!! Go for it!! Ask, all they may say is "NO . . . we are not paying folks to build time with us." So you "use them" and they "use you" for as long as both of you can stand it.

3) You get an oppertunity (airlines, corprate, whatever) and you take a job! You get paid from day one and never look back. You also get paid a far wage for your experience and time and the value that you bring to the job.

Now . . . as for me. . . Iwent into step two for about 5 flights, and when they started asking me to "work for free" to the point that I could not keep instructing, I told them I could not do it. 4 hours later I was offered a job! (went to step 3)

So for some folks, step 1 makes sense ..others step 2 or 3 makes sense. Is life far . .Heck NO!!! Does all of the training and cost that we put into getting the ratings all lead to a low paying first year (or longer) job? HECK YES!! Do we do this because the LOVE flying and have maybe even done other things in our "professional careers" and yet have a longing to be up in an airplane even though everyone says it is stupid!! HECK YES!!!

So find out what oppertunities can work for you, or that YOU can make work for you and go for it!
Aviation is not a far bussiness. If you dont know that yet you soon will. If everyone was worth their time and experience and got paid fairly for it, flight instructors would be making at least $50,000 a year. So to compare one profession to another is just not right! We are in a saturated market, and no matter how much we bitch and wine about it, it is what it is. The market will determine your worth to a large extent. Now we as individuals do have some say, and if we are productive sometimes we can beat the market!

Go walmart!!!!