CFII limitations
- Thread starter minds_warped
- Start date
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
61.195 (b) seems crystal clear to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
So if it so clear to you, why can a CFI teach in a Seaplane?
61.195 (b) seems crystal clear to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
So if it so clear to you, why can a CFI teach in a Seaplane?
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
So if it so clear to you, why can a CFI teach in a Seaplane?
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know about your CFI cert, but mine says "Airplane Single Engine" ... and does not discriminate twixt land and sea...
So if it so clear to you, why can a CFI teach in a Seaplane?
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know about your CFI cert, but mine says "Airplane Single Engine" ... and does not discriminate twixt land and sea...
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
So if it so clear to you, why can a CFI teach in a Seaplane?
[/ QUOTE ]I'll bite at the riddle. Same reason he can teach in a land plane?
So if it so clear to you, why can a CFI teach in a Seaplane?
[/ QUOTE ]I'll bite at the riddle. Same reason he can teach in a land plane?
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So if it so clear to you, why can a CFI teach in a Seaplane?
[/ QUOTE ]I'll bite at the riddle. Same reason he can teach in a land plane?
[/ QUOTE ]
Lol,
I just thought I'd say something stupid!
But when looking at this
61.195(c) Instrument Rating.
A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.
Reading this, a CFII without a CFI could give training towards an instrument rating in a 172 as long as the CFII has the appropriate category and class on his commercial pilot certificate.
Here is another odd question. Could a CFI, CFII, MEI give any instruction in a multi engine aircraft they've never flown?
[ QUOTE ]
So if it so clear to you, why can a CFI teach in a Seaplane?
[/ QUOTE ]I'll bite at the riddle. Same reason he can teach in a land plane?
[/ QUOTE ]
Lol,
I just thought I'd say something stupid!
But when looking at this
61.195(c) Instrument Rating.
A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.
Reading this, a CFII without a CFI could give training towards an instrument rating in a 172 as long as the CFII has the appropriate category and class on his commercial pilot certificate.
Here is another odd question. Could a CFI, CFII, MEI give any instruction in a multi engine aircraft they've never flown?
ananoman
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Here is another odd question. Could a CFI, CFII, MEI give any instruction in a multi engine aircraft they've never flown?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, as long as the student is rated in the airplane (you cannot provide instruction for a certificate or rating unless you have 5 hrs. PIC in type).
This pretty much limits you to doing a BFR or IPC. It would also be legal to do 'aircraft checkouts', but this is unwise for obvious reasons.
Here is another odd question. Could a CFI, CFII, MEI give any instruction in a multi engine aircraft they've never flown?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, as long as the student is rated in the airplane (you cannot provide instruction for a certificate or rating unless you have 5 hrs. PIC in type).
This pretty much limits you to doing a BFR or IPC. It would also be legal to do 'aircraft checkouts', but this is unwise for obvious reasons.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, as long as the student is rated in the airplane (you cannot provide instruction for a certificate or rating unless you have 5 hrs. PIC in type).
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought the 5 hr make and modle PIC requirement was for multi engine airplanes only. Can anybody look that up real quick?
Also just a reminder, there is no such thing as an "aircraft checkout" in the eyes of the FAA. PPL ASEL covers all single engine airplanes with the apropriate endorsments.
Yes, as long as the student is rated in the airplane (you cannot provide instruction for a certificate or rating unless you have 5 hrs. PIC in type).
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought the 5 hr make and modle PIC requirement was for multi engine airplanes only. Can anybody look that up real quick?
Also just a reminder, there is no such thing as an "aircraft checkout" in the eyes of the FAA. PPL ASEL covers all single engine airplanes with the apropriate endorsments.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Could a CFI, CFII, MEI give any instruction in a multi engine aircraft they've never flown?
[/ QUOTE ]
CFI: Yes
CFII: Yes
MEI? Nope. Need 5 hours PIC in Make & Model
Could a CFI, CFII, MEI give any instruction in a multi engine aircraft they've never flown?
[/ QUOTE ]
CFI: Yes
CFII: Yes
MEI? Nope. Need 5 hours PIC in Make & Model
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
But when looking at this
61.195(c) Instrument Rating.
A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.
Reading this, a CFII without a CFI could give training towards an instrument rating in a 172 as long as the CFII has the appropriate category and class on his commercial pilot certificate.
[/ QUOTE ]Part of the problem is that I guess 195(c) can be read as either requiring an instrument rating on the CFI certificate and a category/class rating on the pilot certificate. Or, it can be looked at as requiring appropriate category class and instrument ratings on both certificates.
But, (and this is the one that solves the dilemma for me), no matter which way you want to read it, 61.195(c) definitely =doesn't= say
==============================
A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR only needs to hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.
==============================
In other words, there is nothing in 195(c) that tells me that it is the =only= rule of qualification and that no other rules apply.
And, 195(b) says
==============================
(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and
(2) If appropriate, a type rating.
==============================
it doesn't say,
==============================
(b) Aircraft ratings. Except as provided in subsection (c), a flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and
(2) If appropriate, a type rating.
==============================
So, I read the package of rules in 61.195(b) and (c) to say
==============================
A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold a pilot certificate and a flight instructor certificate that have the applicable category, class type rating. In addition, a flight instructor who provides instrument flight training must hold the appropriate category and class instrument rating on his or her flight instructor and pilot certificate.
==============================
But when looking at this
61.195(c) Instrument Rating.
A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.
Reading this, a CFII without a CFI could give training towards an instrument rating in a 172 as long as the CFII has the appropriate category and class on his commercial pilot certificate.
[/ QUOTE ]Part of the problem is that I guess 195(c) can be read as either requiring an instrument rating on the CFI certificate and a category/class rating on the pilot certificate. Or, it can be looked at as requiring appropriate category class and instrument ratings on both certificates.
But, (and this is the one that solves the dilemma for me), no matter which way you want to read it, 61.195(c) definitely =doesn't= say
==============================
A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR only needs to hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.
==============================
In other words, there is nothing in 195(c) that tells me that it is the =only= rule of qualification and that no other rules apply.
And, 195(b) says
==============================
(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and
(2) If appropriate, a type rating.
==============================
it doesn't say,
==============================
(b) Aircraft ratings. Except as provided in subsection (c), a flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and
(2) If appropriate, a type rating.
==============================
So, I read the package of rules in 61.195(b) and (c) to say
==============================
A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold a pilot certificate and a flight instructor certificate that have the applicable category, class type rating. In addition, a flight instructor who provides instrument flight training must hold the appropriate category and class instrument rating on his or her flight instructor and pilot certificate.
==============================
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
==============================
A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR only needs to hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate ...
==============================
[/ QUOTE ]
I believe you put the emphasis on the wrong words. (Not sure if I followed your intent, so I thought I'd clarify). It is refering to a limitation to a license/rating. Ie....the limitation on their ticket would read "VFR only."
So an instructor who gives instruction to someone who does NOT want a VFR only limitation, (the instructor) must have be a CFII.
==============================
A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR only needs to hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate ...
==============================
[/ QUOTE ]
I believe you put the emphasis on the wrong words. (Not sure if I followed your intent, so I thought I'd clarify). It is refering to a limitation to a license/rating. Ie....the limitation on their ticket would read "VFR only."
So an instructor who gives instruction to someone who does NOT want a VFR only limitation, (the instructor) must have be a CFII.
ananoman
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
I thought the 5 hr make and modle PIC requirement was for multi engine airplanes only. Can anybody look that up real quick?
[/ QUOTE ] It also applies to helicopters. Either way, you can provide instruction without the 5 hrs. PIC as long as it is not for a certificate or rating. As long as the student is already rated, you can give a BFR or IPC without meeting the 5 hr limitation.
I thought the 5 hr make and modle PIC requirement was for multi engine airplanes only. Can anybody look that up real quick?
[/ QUOTE ] It also applies to helicopters. Either way, you can provide instruction without the 5 hrs. PIC as long as it is not for a certificate or rating. As long as the student is already rated, you can give a BFR or IPC without meeting the 5 hr limitation.
ananoman
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
it doesn't say,
==============================
(b) Aircraft ratings. Except as provided in subsection (c), a flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and
(2) If appropriate, a type rating.
==============================
[/ QUOTE ] I will agree that it does not hurt to be cautious here. Since even the FAA does not appear to be clear on this issue, you could end up being the 'test case' before the NTSB. But, I am willing to bet that if you went to get a CFII as your first instuctor rating it would not include the limitation "this certificate is not to be used to give flight instruction". So back to the question, if your interperetation is correct, why does the FAA even allow this as an initial CFI rating?
it doesn't say,
==============================
(b) Aircraft ratings. Except as provided in subsection (c), a flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and
(2) If appropriate, a type rating.
==============================
[/ QUOTE ] I will agree that it does not hurt to be cautious here. Since even the FAA does not appear to be clear on this issue, you could end up being the 'test case' before the NTSB. But, I am willing to bet that if you went to get a CFII as your first instuctor rating it would not include the limitation "this certificate is not to be used to give flight instruction". So back to the question, if your interperetation is correct, why does the FAA even allow this as an initial CFI rating?
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
==============================
A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR only needs to hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate ...
==============================
[/ QUOTE ]
I believe you put the emphasis on the wrong words. (Not sure if I followed your intent, so I thought I'd clarify). It is referring to a limitation to a license/rating. Ie....the limitation on their ticket would read "VFR only."
So an instructor who gives instruction to someone who does NOT want a VFR only limitation, (the instructor) must have be a CFII.
[/ QUOTE ]No. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, "although limited to VFR only" is a bit redundant and I thought the follow-up sentence would have clarified it.
We could try
==============================
A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR needs to only hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate ...
==============================
[ QUOTE ]
==============================
A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR only needs to hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate ...
==============================
[/ QUOTE ]
I believe you put the emphasis on the wrong words. (Not sure if I followed your intent, so I thought I'd clarify). It is referring to a limitation to a license/rating. Ie....the limitation on their ticket would read "VFR only."
So an instructor who gives instruction to someone who does NOT want a VFR only limitation, (the instructor) must have be a CFII.
[/ QUOTE ]No. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, "although limited to VFR only" is a bit redundant and I thought the follow-up sentence would have clarified it.
We could try
==============================
A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR needs to only hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate ...
==============================
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
In the two-CFIs logging tie thread, Chris Ford pointed out that a case that I linked has some language about this issue. Couldn't find the reference at first, but eventually did.
The interesting thing about this is that in the case, the FAA was arguing the opposite. The Eastern regional counsel just a year ago said the opposite. And within the past year, a CFI was charged based on the opposite (although the charges were dropped ). So, in combination with everything else, it looks like the FAA still has trouble with this one.
The source is FAA Order 8700.1 - General Aviation Operations Inspector's Handbook, Volume 2, Chapter 11, Section 1, Paragraph 15. This is the entire paragraph"
==============================
15. Regulatory Requirements According to FAR 61.195(b), a flight instructor may not conduct flight instruction in any aircraft for which he or she does not hold category, class, and type ratings, if appropriate, on the pilot and flight instructor certificates. The phrase "if appropriate" applies equally to and in combination with both certificates when instrument instructor ratings are involved.
A. Single and/or Multiengine Ratings. According to FAR Part 61, flight instructors who hold an "instrument - airplane" rating only on their flight instructor certificate are authorized to give instrument flight instruction in single and/or multiengine airplanes for instrument certification provided they hold single and/or multiengine ratings on their pilot certificate.
B. Class Ratings. Flight instructors who hold flight instructor certificates issued under FAR Part 61, which allow only instrument instructor privileges in airplanes, may give instrument flight instruction in any class airplane that is listed without restriction on their pilot certificate. Instructors holding only a helicopter - instrument rating on their flight instructor certificate are limited to conducting instrument flight instruction in helicopters.
C. Ratings Limited to Instrument. Instructors with ratings limited to instrument may not give instrument flight instruction to students who do not hold category and class ratings in the aircraft used, since this would be instruction for the addition of a rating that conveys other than instrument privileges. These instructors may not certify logbooks or recommend applicants for any aircraft category or class rating.
==============================
Caveat about this Order - it's a guide for FAA inspectors and has a tendency to be out of date. It still contains references to taking the ATP checkride before the 23rd birthday, something the FAA specifically got rid of in the regs 8 years ago.
The interesting thing about this is that in the case, the FAA was arguing the opposite. The Eastern regional counsel just a year ago said the opposite. And within the past year, a CFI was charged based on the opposite (although the charges were dropped ). So, in combination with everything else, it looks like the FAA still has trouble with this one.
The source is FAA Order 8700.1 - General Aviation Operations Inspector's Handbook, Volume 2, Chapter 11, Section 1, Paragraph 15. This is the entire paragraph"
==============================
15. Regulatory Requirements According to FAR 61.195(b), a flight instructor may not conduct flight instruction in any aircraft for which he or she does not hold category, class, and type ratings, if appropriate, on the pilot and flight instructor certificates. The phrase "if appropriate" applies equally to and in combination with both certificates when instrument instructor ratings are involved.
A. Single and/or Multiengine Ratings. According to FAR Part 61, flight instructors who hold an "instrument - airplane" rating only on their flight instructor certificate are authorized to give instrument flight instruction in single and/or multiengine airplanes for instrument certification provided they hold single and/or multiengine ratings on their pilot certificate.
B. Class Ratings. Flight instructors who hold flight instructor certificates issued under FAR Part 61, which allow only instrument instructor privileges in airplanes, may give instrument flight instruction in any class airplane that is listed without restriction on their pilot certificate. Instructors holding only a helicopter - instrument rating on their flight instructor certificate are limited to conducting instrument flight instruction in helicopters.
C. Ratings Limited to Instrument. Instructors with ratings limited to instrument may not give instrument flight instruction to students who do not hold category and class ratings in the aircraft used, since this would be instruction for the addition of a rating that conveys other than instrument privileges. These instructors may not certify logbooks or recommend applicants for any aircraft category or class rating.
==============================
Caveat about this Order - it's a guide for FAA inspectors and has a tendency to be out of date. It still contains references to taking the ATP checkride before the 23rd birthday, something the FAA specifically got rid of in the regs 8 years ago.
GaTechKid
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Sec. 61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.
A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the
following limitations:
(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight
training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the
applicable category and class rating; and
(2) If appropriate, a type rating.
[/ QUOTE ]
I only see the phrase "if appropriate" applicable to a type rating.
Sec. 61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.
A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the
following limitations:
(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight
training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the
applicable category and class rating; and
(2) If appropriate, a type rating.
[/ QUOTE ]
I only see the phrase "if appropriate" applicable to a type rating.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
]
I only see the phrase "if appropriate" applicable to a type rating.
[/ QUOTE ]Probably because an aircraft rating always has a category and class associated with it. Types don't always have rating. (So, far I haven't seen a CE-172 type rating on a certificate of any kind
They were just shortening
"a type rating, if the aircraft is one that requires a type rating"
]
I only see the phrase "if appropriate" applicable to a type rating.
[/ QUOTE ]Probably because an aircraft rating always has a category and class associated with it. Types don't always have rating. (So, far I haven't seen a CE-172 type rating on a certificate of any kind
They were just shortening
"a type rating, if the aircraft is one that requires a type rating"