CFII First

You CAN get your II as your initial CFI rating. It's sort of annoying though because you can only give instruction in an airplane that somebody is already rated for.
 
Actually you can't give instruction in an airplane at all, only in sims or ground instruction.

What! You want a source?

§ 61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.

(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:

(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and
 
But are you instructing for an aircraft rating or an instrument rating (added on to an aircraft rating)?
 
Doesn't matter, read the rule.

"(b) Aircraft ratings." is a title.

"A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:" is pretty self explanitory.
 
I did my CFII first because that's what Skymates was doing for a while. We had quite a number of people do it that way before it was switched to CFI for the initial. The thinking was that you got the biggest part of studying and preparation done first and then the CFI and MEI addons would be relatively easier followups. Also it limits what they can ask you in the oral. I didn't get any questions over performance charts, maneuvers outside of instrument, etc. That was the biggest part of my CFI and MEI by far. It seemed to work out ok for me. Someone from the FSDO told our chief pilot that they preferred to do CFI initials so we switched shortly after I was through.
You can do the CFII initial in a non-complex airplane too, but your first addon whether it be CFI or MEI does have to be in a complex.
 
Ralgha said:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and
Click to expand...

Your Double-Eye says: "Flight Instructor: Instrument - Airplane"

Not just 'Instrument', the 'airplane' tagged on means you can do it in an airplane.
 
:yeahthat:

But the stu has to be rated in the aircraft or else you are giving initial instruction in the airplane and that is a no no.
 
nosehair said:
Your Double-Eye says: "Flight Instructor: Instrument - Airplane"

Not just 'Instrument', the 'airplane' tagged on means you can do it in an airplane.
Click to expand...

Doesn't say single or multi-engine. The rule says:

(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating;

Sorry, no class on that certificate. It has nothing to do with the student's ratings
 
Ralgha said:
Doesn't say single or multi-engine. The rule says:

(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating;

Sorry, no class on that certificate. It has nothing to do with the student's ratings
Click to expand...

I know several that did their CFII first and instructed instrument students only...in airplanes.
 
Ralgha said:
Doesn't make it legal.
Click to expand...
I like how you are pointing out one of the many 'inconsistancies' in our beloved FAA regulations, and I agree in the concept that a flight instructor should be an 'Aircraft' Instructor first, then an Instrument instructor second, but you know full well that the FAA issues 'Instrument Instructor' Certificates without a class rating. And instrument instruction from these 'instrument instructor only' type instructors has been used as legal instruction since the time that the FAA required 'instrument instructor' ratings.

...and I know; that still doesn't make it legal. But that is how it is being done.

What can we do to bring this illegal activity to the FAA's atention?
 
There's nothing inconsistent about it. Being an instrument instructor only is completely valid. You can give ground instruction, and simulator instruction. There is no reason regulatory or practically to forbid someone from doing the instrument instructor rating as the initial instructor certificate.

As to how to notify the FAA about it, well it really wouldn't be too hard to do, but I don't have reason or motivation to do so.
 
Perfectly legal...and they can teach in any airplane. The only problem comes when they try and teach multi engine maneuvers required by the instrument PTS...can't do that. Everything else is fair game though.......
 
launchpad said:
Perfectly legal...and they can teach in any airplane. The only problem comes when they try and teach multi engine maneuvers required by the instrument PTS...can't do that. Everything else is fair game though.......
Click to expand...

Really? And you justify that how exactly?
 
Ralgha said:
There's nothing inconsistent about it.
Click to expand...
The inconsistancy is that this reg is under Subpart H, Flight Instructors.
Subpart I is for Ground Instructors. The Instrument Ground Instructor covers the privileges you mention.

This is the Instrument Flight Instructor Certificate.
***And you are right. The regulation, 61.195, as I read it, does require an aircraft category and class.

Never really thought it through. You can get the double-I first, but you can't teach in an airplane 'til you get a class rating.
 
It's all in the wording...

I think a common misconception is a result of the poor legalized wording of a few things in this section:

The title of 61.195(b): "Aircraft Ratings." Considering the context, the title does NOT mean ANY RATING... it specifically refers to Aircraft ratings... as in aircraft-specific ratings, such as a multi-engine rating or single-engine rating that goes on your certificate (as well as land/sea). Also consider that 61.195(c) is entitled "Instrument Rating." Refering specifically to the instrument rating. (b) is saying that a flight instructor may not provide instruction towards an aircraft rating that the instructor is not rated to fly him/herself. For instance a CFI (without an MEI) can't train someone for their multi-engine rating (an aircraft rating). Just as a regular CFI can't give someone instruction towards their single-engine sea certificate. It's a different "aircraft rating". A CFI sea would be required to do so.

That being said... (b) does not apply to (c). Now as for the wording in (c): "a flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided."
The big question is the how the sentence was meant to be read. Pay special attention to the underscored "and." The problem is... depending on which way you read it, it could mean two different things.
1. The "and" means that... "that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft" applies to both the pilot certificate AND the flight instructor certificate. Meaning A CFII would also have to have a CFI to do an instrument in a single-engine, or an MEI to do it in a multi-engine.
2. The "and" separates "an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate" from "pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft..." Meaning the category and class would only have to be on your pilot certificate, and just a CFII would suffice.

I agree with #2 but unfortunately the ultimate translation is up to your local FSDO... It seems they all have their own answers. However, I can tell you this. There are a few misconceptions dealing with the CFII. Some people are under the impression that if you take your CFII checkride in a multi, it counts for a single as well, but not visa versa. The idea is because there is a single-engine instrument approach on the pts if a multi-engine aircraft is used for the checkride, therefore making it more difficult. This idea is false. The instrument is not aircraft-class specific. When you get "INSTRUMENT" added to your instructor certificate it does not specify whether the INSTRUMENT is multi or single. If you take your CFII ride in a multi, you can do an instrument in a single too. If you take it in a single, you can do an instrument in a multi too. Same thing for sea plane. If you get a CFI sea addon, It's not another CFII ride to take in order to teach instruments in a seaplane. You only have to take one CFII checkride to teach instruments in anything you are qualified to fly.

Unfortunately one thing I've learned about aviation is not to take anything as fact without a reference. Because there is lots of "he said, she said" going on, especially with all the inflated egos of pilots floating around. : ) I think I've beat this into the ground enough now. Any questions/comments?
 
Ralgha said:
Actually you can't give instruction in an airplane at all, only in sims or ground instruction.
Click to expand...

Not so. It's done all the time. Note below that all you need is your -II and have the class rating on you pilot certificate:

§61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.

A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations:

[deleted]

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.
 
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