LoadMasterC141
Well-Known Member
That sounds like a pretty good deal. What are you flying? How long have you been instructing? What are your times?
CFI waiting list
- Thread starter badtransam97
- Start date
guywhoflies
Y'NO WUT IM SAYIN
Yes. As someone else said, you are paid as an independent contractor but you sure as hell don't work like one.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
Thats exactly how I am treated now as a Commercial ride pilot, and how I will be treated once I am an instructor there.
I am at ATP now doing the CFI course and I wont work there seeing the amount they fly, with the amount of money I know they make. Multi time or not I wont be a slave without a day off and no money to spend.
DaveC
Well-Known Member
Been instructing for three years with about 1500TT in the books, for a while I've only logged for currency though.
Right now I'm primarily instructing in C-172s and Remos LSAs. A lot of my business is in students' aircraft though.
guywhoflies
Y'NO WUT IM SAYIN
Unfortunately, $1500 is more than instructors were getting 3 years ago. Back then, the base pay was $1000/month and housing cost $200/month on top of that. Could you imagine working 6-7 days a week for $800 a month before paying any taxes??? That is well below minimum wage. But whatever.
Then ATP gave the cfi's a raise to $1200/month but housing also went up to $300/month so essentially the raise was only $100. Anyway, when the hiring boom was going on and ATP couldn't get/keep instructors they raised the pay to $1600 and then they raised it again to $2000.
Now it is back down to $1500 and I wonder when they will drop it back down to the $1000-$1200/month range. I am sure they will justify it as "you have to build time to get to 800 hours to get to the regionals and here you get multi time and seniority is everything, get there first with ATP blah blah blah".
Excuse me while I go throw up now.
Then ATP gave the cfi's a raise to $1200/month but housing also went up to $300/month so essentially the raise was only $100. Anyway, when the hiring boom was going on and ATP couldn't get/keep instructors they raised the pay to $1600 and then they raised it again to $2000.
Now it is back down to $1500 and I wonder when they will drop it back down to the $1000-$1200/month range. I am sure they will justify it as "you have to build time to get to 800 hours to get to the regionals and here you get multi time and seniority is everything, get there first with ATP blah blah blah".
Excuse me while I go throw up now.
DaveC
Well-Known Member
Just yesterday I was talking with a helicopter pilot coming up on his commercial checkride. He's thinking about taking a job that involves flying about 150 hours/month and requires him to be at the airport 12 hours/day, 7 days/week. The pay is $400/month. His justification is that it will get him the time he needs.
Unfortunately, as long as there are people willing to devalue their trade, the value will continue to fall.
44Driver
New Member
That's what I'm talking about. Spending $50,000 on the Career Pilot Program so that you "might" get hired as an instructor for $1500/mo in hopes of getting enough time to get in at some crappy American Eagle esque regional where you'll just get furloughed in the first couple years. Never being able to own a new care, home, or take a vacation because you're trying to pay back $500-800/mo on that loan when you're earning < 30,000/yr. Get ready to move back in with Mom & Dad. Give up any hope of marriage & children.
When I went through the ATP program our instructors ferried aircraft for a maintenence shop at night and the manager parked cars at on of the local hotels. That should tell you how much ATP cares about the people who go through their program.
Do you honestly think you are going to make more money at most other flight schools as a CFI. If you do, you have a twisted view of aviation. ATP's CFI may not be the best paid in the industry, but they are definatly not the worst. If you got into this industry to make loads and loads of money working a few days a month, you haven't done your research, and are in it for the wrong reasons. I work seven days a week, and make poor mans money at an FBO. ATP would be a raise (all be it a smll one). But atleast at ATP you have stability. Some weeks I work a ton, some I don't. The most you can wish for is a steady paycheck in this industry. Why don't you step down from your soap box and get educated on the industry. Sounds to me like the SJS has worn off, and the foggles have been removed.
ATP is a fine school, with average CFI pay. If you aren't willing to see that after doing some research, then move on from this thread. And just so you are informed, I went to ATP PHX. Did I get what I think is good value for my money, yes. Are their airplanes well maintained, yes. Are their instructors well educated, no more or less than at an FBO. Sounds to me like you saw an add in AOPA/Flying/P&P and plunked down the money without knowing what you were getting yourself into. Your fault, not anyone elses. And it shows in your posts.
ADIZFlyboy
Well-Known Member
hey 44driver, did you go to Daytona? the story you mentioned w/ the prop and the manager valeting cars sounds extremely familiar..
nocturnalaviator
AI Jedi
Coming up on 3yrs @ ATP. Doesn't phase me much, I just do what I have to and strive for the best. However SJS doesn't apply to me, I am not willing to "buy" a job, work for free etc. I like to take pride in my work and efforts. I suffer from patients and persistance, and realize it's a long road if you wanna rock n roll.
This.
It's like no other career I have researched. It take a while to get into a position where you make a good living, more so than some other careers. Thats why you have to love it. Nothing good comes with out great sacrafice. Throw in a healthy dose of JC, and network you butt off and in the end it should pay off. I leave out will because as with anything in life, it's all a crap shoot.
wrxpilot
New Member
Look, $1500/month flat out sucks. I'm sorry you apparently haven't been able to figure out a way to do better than that, but it is absolutely possible. I did it (as a CFI) and I still have CFI friends that are clearing $2500-3000/month.
Working at a busy, independent FBO has many advantages. They are out there, trust me.
Yes I know there is, and I have worked at them. Last summer I was working at two places 7 days a week, and I still work 7 days a week at one. I am just about to head off to work as I type this. Both places were VERY busy. I built just shy of 1100 hrs last year, and have more than a few students under my belt. I was makeing $30 an hour at one place that I no longer work at due to saftey concerns. At that place I would make in one week working 3 days what I would make in two at the other working 4. Average CFI pay is right around $1500 a month. Do your research. If you want to make $2500-3000 a month as a CFI, your going to be DAMN busy(12-13 hr days). Bussier than most CFI's. Where I currently work as a full time CFI, I usually fly about 3-4 hrs a day now, and see no rush in working myself to death. I am not concerned about being rich. I am however concerned about keeping a roof over my head, food in my belly and making a safe return back to the airport. Hence, the reason why I still work at the place where I make a little less money.
P.S. With bonuses at ATP, it's entirely possible to make $2200/$2500 a month, but you have to earn it, just like anywhere else.
Edit to add: I never said what I earn, but it would be compariable to an ATP salary with good bonuses. I bet I could do $2200/$2500 a month at ATP. Plus I get Medical/Dental, etc. etc. etc.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
The problem with ATP is that they condition their students that this is the ONLY way it is. I have met a few career program pilots in the program now and they had no idea the outside world works different. Especially the enjoying flying part. One student has never flown to get a 100 dollar hamburger, or taken a single pax up because its not ATP policy. So on top of the dim road ahead you barely get to enjoy flying in the first place. One CFI I talked to had no idea you could do private instruction, or that other school's paid instructors more.
This conditioning that the only way is the ATP way is why the instructors think that American Eagle is a godsend and you have to work 90 hours a week sleeping on a couch in order to achieve it.
In my CFI class(I am not on their career program I am doing the CFI course only) the instructors big claim to fame is how one instructor just left to go work at Ameriflight. Thats fantastic, but is that really worth selling yourself short for a year? I know what I'm worth and I charge accordingly. I wont go that route. I am not saying anything bad about Ameriflight but I dont understand how people dont look ahead and that if you are always selling yourself short for compensation it will never stop.
This conditioning that the only way is the ATP way is why the instructors think that American Eagle is a godsend and you have to work 90 hours a week sleeping on a couch in order to achieve it.
In my CFI class(I am not on their career program I am doing the CFI course only) the instructors big claim to fame is how one instructor just left to go work at Ameriflight. Thats fantastic, but is that really worth selling yourself short for a year? I know what I'm worth and I charge accordingly. I wont go that route. I am not saying anything bad about Ameriflight but I dont understand how people dont look ahead and that if you are always selling yourself short for compensation it will never stop.
44Driver
New Member
Yeah, it was a mess. The manager was a drunk. We'd see him out at the bars whenever we'd go out. When he did show up for work it was at like noon. Which left everyone (including me) wondering when their checkrides were going down. Though my friends who just finished said he finally got fired.
I'm not disenchanted or anything. I'm just pointing out the facts. The ATP people sell you on the program by sugar coating everything so that people take out these big loans that they'll never be able to pay back on 1500/mo or FO salary. They don't sell the program by telling people how much work it is or how bad the state of the airline industry is.
I knew what I was getting into. I decided to work full time in IT to have a good salary and instruct on the weekends. I also do rental check outs in the afternoons so I'm getting 25-40hrs/mo.
ADIZFlyboy
Well-Known Member
when i went there he didnt seem like he had his head in the game any more. i recall one specific checkride where the date was up in the air and I finally found out at 10pm that i was having one the next day at 8AM and that i needed to have a x/c planned from fl to nj (not a fun night...). a lot of people had incidents like that. the one instructor that was doing the ppl program ended up w/ all 4 of his students scheduled on the same day. not a good day for him.
i will say that that the other locations seemed to be much more squared away. good to hear that atp got rid of that mess. good to hear you're instructing. i'm looking to knock out my cfi ratings so i can do the same. which airport are you doing stuff out of?
i will say that that the other locations seemed to be much more squared away. good to hear that atp got rid of that mess. good to hear you're instructing. i'm looking to knock out my cfi ratings so i can do the same. which airport are you doing stuff out of?