CFI Initial spin endorsement

jdlilfan

jdlilfan

Well-Known Member
I am hopefully not trying to open a can of worms with this and tried to attach my question to another similar post but it was closed.

There has been some argument as of late over who can give spin training and sign the endorsement of the CFI initial. Initially my flight school had someone with 2/2 doing the training until the hiring boom. Then of course we couldn't keep someone with 2/2. For a while we were having a more junior instructor give the training and endorsement but have a 2/2 CFI do the rest. The reason a 2/2 couldn't give the training is because we use a Super Decathlon for the training and no one with 2/2 was "qualified" to instruct in the plane (its a pay to play deal-requires 50 hours...don't get me started...:banghead:).

This worked for a while because our FSDO was issuing "letters" to take checkrides with DE's. Apparently the DE's didn't seem to be as thorough. Over the past year however FSDO Inspectors have taken over all of the initial CFI rides and FSDO disagreed and said that the 2/2 has to give all of the training and endorsements (including the spin). But then just last week the POI of the local FSDO said it can be any instructor? Now everyone at my FBO is confused? The POI also supposedly mentioned that the endorsement can be given with only ground training ( I heard that second hand though)?

So I guess my question is, what constitutes an authorized instructor? Is it someone with 200 hours dual/ 2 years or just a wet ink CFI? Also what has to be a spin endorsement? I thought it required instructional knowledge and demonstrations of spins by the candidate (i.e. candidate would teach a solid ground lesson, go up and instruct/demonstrate spins), not just a ground school endorsement?
 
You have to go up and fly and be able to recover. Too many instructors are scared to spin themselves though and will sign someone off with .8 dual. That is BS. After .8 they wont be effective at recovering from a student spinning the airplane on them when they aren't expecting it. I suggest going to a instructor with aerobatic background that can teach you all the ins and outs of spins. It took me 3 hours of dual doing spins to get mine because my instructor was extremely through in making sure I could recover in even some the more insane scenarios.
 
Jbroz04 said:
It took me 3 hours of dual doing spins to get mine because my instructor was extremely through in making sure I could recover in even some the more insane scenarios.
Click to expand...

Same here. We went through different scenarios of a student getting into an inadvertent spin and I had to recover. As a flight instructor you are the final authority and you have to feel confident that you can get the aircraft out of any unusual attitude. Honestly though it was the most fun I had during instructor training.
 
It is fun. I always quote bill stein when he said "Once you’ve mastered all of the spin modes in an airplane, you’re, for the very first time, able to truly experience the freedom of flight. Once I tasted that feeling, there was no turning back." Once you feel confident that you can recover for anything you will feel more free to go out and fly and not worry about what happens if I spin because you will feel confident in your ability to recover.
 
I'm not sure what the argument is. The requirement for a 2/2 instructor to provide the flight and ground training and endorsements for an initial CFI candidate seems pretty straightforward and clear.

Even if not clear fro the language of the regs, think about it for a moment. This isn't training in doing spins. It's training in "instructional knowledge" in spins, using knowledge of spins to teach spin awareness and being able to recover from a student-induced intentional spin.

Given that the whole purpose of the 2/2 requirement is that the CFI candidate is going to be taught by an experienced instructor (not just an expetrienced pilot) is the only required spin training in the entire FAR also the only traiing the FAA would leave to a wet-ink CFI?
 
What Mark wrote. For one it seems pretty cut a dry. Two, do you really want a CFI with one or two spins teaching a CFI applicant about spins??

"(h) Qualifications of the flight instructor for training first-time flight instructor applicants. (1) The ground training provided to an initial applicant for a flight instructor certificate must be given by an authorized instructor who—
(i) Holds a current ground or flight instructor certificate with the appropriate rating, has held that certificate for at least 24 months, and has given at least 40 hours of ground training; or
(ii) Holds a current ground or flight instructor certificate with the appropriate rating, and has given at least 100 hours of ground training in an FAA-approved course.
(2) Except for an instructor who meets the requirements of paragraph (h)(3)(ii) of this section, a flight instructor who provides training to an initial applicant for a flight instructor certificate must—
(i) Meet the eligibility requirements prescribed in §61.183 of this part;
(ii) Hold the appropriate flight instructor certificate and rating;
(iii) Have held a flight instructor certificate for at least 24 months;
(iv) For training in preparation for an airplane, rotorcraft, or powered-lift rating, have given at least 200 hours of flight training as a flight instructor; and..."

Since this is instruction that must be endorsed in the logbook, it must be from an authorized instructor.
Frankly, those who got their rides from the DE could have their certificates revoked if the FAA gets wind of what happened. I've seen this happen in the past- and the DE had his examination authority revoked. Not the exact same circumstances, but a similar situation where the DE misinterpreted a regulation. I am not saying it will happen, but I have seen it happen.
 
Blackhawk said:
Two, do you really want a CFI with one or two spins teaching a CFI applicant about spins??
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I'm not sure that the amount of spin-specific experience is necessarily the issue. Given the bare minimum spin training that a CFI receives, and the lack of any requirement to keep even that current, there are probably many CFIs with years of experience who have done only the minimum one or two spins for their CFI and others who never did any because they came through the system when spins were not required for anything.

But I think the point is that it less about the spins themselves than the "instructional knowledge" component and the general FAA scheme that instruction of new instructors be by senior instructors.
 
Sorry my initial post didn't make much sense.

I guess my question is, who can give the spin training to the initial CFI candidate and who can sign the endorsement? Can a normal CFI give the training but a 2/2 CFI sign the endorsement?

This is what we have been doing under prior chief instructor management. FSDO inspectors said it was wrong but then the POI for the FSDO said that it was acceptable? The POI also said that it didn't require a flight, just the applicant has to demonstrate the "instructional knowledge". Thats what I meant by ground endorsement...
 
jdlilfan said:
FSDO inspectors said it was wrong but then the POI for the FSDO said that it was acceptable? The POI also said that it didn't require a flight, just the applicant has to demonstrate the "instructional knowledge". Thats what I meant by ground endorsement...
Click to expand...
Ouch! I think what you now have is an opportunity to standardize the FAA. My recommendation is to write a letter to the Chief Counsel's Office and ask for an interpretation. Don't waste time "asking"; write. We each have an opinion. Mine runs along the same line as Mark's. However, my opinion and everyone at your FSDO's opinion, still doesn't make an FAA policy. The down side of my recommendation is that if you end up with a policy letter that says something different than the local inspectors' and POI's opinion, you may ruffle their feathers. Hopefully they are big boys and don't ruffle, but people are people.
 
jdlilfan said:
Sorry my initial post didn't make much sense.

I guess my question is, who can give the spin training to the initial CFI candidate and who can sign the endorsement? Can a normal CFI give the training but a 2/2 CFI sign the endorsement?

This is what we have been doing under prior chief instructor management. FSDO inspectors said it was wrong but then the POI for the FSDO said that it was acceptable? The POI also said that it didn't require a flight, just the applicant has to demonstrate the "instructional knowledge". Thats what I meant by ground endorsement...
Click to expand...

" (2) Except for an instructor who meets the requirements of paragraph (h)(3)(ii) of this section, a flight instructor who provides training to an initial applicant for a flight instructor certificate must—"
 
From 61.183:
"(1) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins; and..."
I've heard rumors about some initial CFI applicants being able to get away with doing no spins at all but discounted it as I felt the regulation was very cut a dry. Maybe it is time to ask for an interpretation since there are some who somehow read this differently.
 
jdlilfan said:
Sorry my initial post didn't make much sense.

I guess my question is, who can give the spin training to the initial CFI candidate and who can sign the endorsement? Can a normal CFI give the training but a 2/2 CFI sign the endorsement?
Click to expand...
Don't worry , I didn't' type the following from scratch. It's a wannabe FAQ that never made it to my web site (just IMO, of course - won't even get you a Starbuck's):


Spin Training Endorsement for the First-Time CFI Applicant

FAR 61.195(h) requires that the training for someone applying for the first CFI certificate be given by someone who has been a CFI for at least 24 months (I call this a "Senior CFI").

Every once in a while someone claims that the spin training and endorsement required by 61.183(i) does not have to be done by a Senior CFI , even in the case of the first-time CFI applicant. None have been able to give a decent reason why they think that way.

Except for some pretty specific exceptions, 61.195(h) tells us that "a flight instructor who provides training to an initial applicant for a flight instructor certificate must ... Have held a flight instructor certificate for at least 24 months"

Pretty straight forward. In the context of first time applicants the words "authorized instructor" means "Senior CFI". In order to =count= toward CFI requirements, CFI-specific =training= must be =given= by a Senior CFI. If the Examiner during a CFI ride says, "Show me the entry in your logbook that shows that you received instructional training in takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds [61.187(b)(1)(vii)]" the Applicant better be able to point to a logbook entry that covers these tasks that was signed by a Senior CFI.


Let's look at the CFI spin training requirement in 61.183(i). The applicant must

==============================
Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas
==============================

Notice that this is not a general "spin endorsement." Lots of pilots get spin training, and some FBOs require that the training be endorsed for insurance purposes. Some pilots take a three month course combining unusual attitude recovery and aerobatics and can do a 1/2 reverse Cuban followed by a loop into an Immelman that terminates is a spin that you recover from after 13 turns. Sorry. Doesn't count.

The CFI-specific endorsement isn't that you can =do= spins. It's that you can =teach= spins and have the instructional competence to know when a student is about to get you into one and can prevent or recover from it. And like =all= training and endorsements that =court= for the CFI, if this is the applicant's first CFI certificate, it must be done by a Senior CFI.

You can have 46 logbook spin entries by a junior CFI, but, if you are going to point to something at your first CFI checkride to show that 61.183(i)'s requirements have been met, there had better be at least two that are signed by a Senior CFI:

1. A logbook line item for dual flight training that includes spins, etc to show the required training.
2. A one-time endorsement of instructional competence.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Don't worry , I didn't' type the following from scratch. It's a wannabe FAQ that never made it to my web site (just IMO, of course - won't even get you a Starbuck's):


Spin Training Endorsement for the First-Time CFI Applicant

FAR 61.195(h) requires that the training for someone applying for the first CFI certificate be given by someone who has been a CFI for at least 24 months (I call this a "Senior CFI").

Every once in a while someone claims that the spin training and endorsement required by 61.183(i) does not have to be done by a Senior CFI , even in the case of the first-time CFI applicant. None have been able to give a decent reason why they think that way.

Except for some pretty specific exceptions, 61.195(h) tells us that "a flight instructor who provides training to an initial applicant for a flight instructor certificate must ... Have held a flight instructor certificate for at least 24 months"

Pretty straight forward. In the context of first time applicants the words "authorized instructor" means "Senior CFI". In order to =count= toward CFI requirements, CFI-specific =training= must be =given= by a Senior CFI. If the Examiner during a CFI ride says, "Show me the entry in your logbook that shows that you received instructional training in takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds [61.187(b)(1)(vii)]" the Applicant better be able to point to a logbook entry that covers these tasks that was signed by a Senior CFI.


Let's look at the CFI spin training requirement in 61.183(i). The applicant must

==============================
Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas
==============================

Notice that this is not a general "spin endorsement." Lots of pilots get spin training, and some FBOs require that the training be endorsed for insurance purposes. Some pilots take a three month course combining unusual attitude recovery and aerobatics and can do a 1/2 reverse Cuban followed by a loop into an Immelman that terminates is a spin that you recover from after 13 turns. Sorry. Doesn't count.

The CFI-specific endorsement isn't that you can =do= spins. It's that you can =teach= spins and have the instructional competence to know when a student is about to get you into one and can prevent or recover from it. And like =all= training and endorsements that =court= for the CFI, if this is the applicant's first CFI certificate, it must be done by a Senior CFI.

You can have 46 logbook spin entries by a junior CFI, but, if you are going to point to something at your first CFI checkride to show that 61.183(i)'s requirements have been met, there had better be at least two that are signed by a Senior CFI:

1. A logbook line item for dual flight training that includes spins, etc to show the required training.
2. A one-time endorsement of instructional competence.
Click to expand...

Reading this, it seems to me like it would be OK for the junior CFI to give the training to get the guy ready, have him fly with the senior CFI and cover the required training in one or two flights, and then have the senior CFI sign the required endorsements?
 
I hope we aren't talking about spinning a skyhawk for three hours. It's four rote items. Not the hardest thing in the world to do.
 
God no I wouldnt spin a skypark skyhawk. Things not attached might fall off. haha. No I went and flew a SuperD for mine.
 
We wont go there. Lets just say after the FAA came the other day and grounded 8 planes. Nothing serious but alot of things that shouldn't of been looked over. My opinion of the place is slowly changing. But the 182rg was just rebuilt and for now flies amazing. Which is all I fly out of there so its all good. Im going to get my CFI-G and teach gliders and fly the tow plane most of next summer because it is closer to my house.
 
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