CFI checkride count as BFR?

Boilermaker21

New Member
Does your initial CFI-single engine airplane check ride count as a BFR?....i had a friend of mine tell me it doesnt, and under 61.56 Flight review it says, "passed a pilot prof. check for a certificate, rating, or operating privledge need not accomplish the flight review........
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
They are actually two seperate things.

Part 61.56 (d) basically says that if you've passed a practical test for a rating, operating privilege or pilot certificate, you do not need to have a flight review.

You may be getting this confused with 61.56 (f), which says that if you've had a CFI RENEWAL within the past 24 months, you don't need the 1 hour of ground instruction for the flight review.
 

E_Dawg

Moderator
No it does not count. The CFI is not a pilot cert, it is an instructor cert and 61.56 does not apply. However, at the end of the checkride you will have basically completed the requirements of the flight review (1hr flt / 1hr gnd) and may get an additional sign off from the examiner if you remember to ask.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
The short answer is no.

The real answer is maybe. It depends on the manuevers you perform during the ride and whether or not the DE/Examiner will sign off a 61.56 endorsement after the ride.

Without the endorsement then it does not count. If he does the endorsement that you're good. You simply have to ask him/her ahead of time and see if they are willing to do it for you.
 

Boilermaker21

New Member
Yea, i saw the part about the one hour of gnd. not being needed if it was a renewel, but i never thought to ask my DE for a signoff at the time....too bad my ride was about 6 months ago....dang....
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Yea, i saw the part about the one hour of gnd. not being needed if it was a renewel, but i never thought to ask my DE for a signoff at the time....too bad my ride was about 6 months ago....dang....

[/ QUOTE ]Ask him now. If it's a DE rather than an FAA Inspector, chances are he'll accommodate you.

Because of the simple fact that a CFI ride will ordinarily cover everything you need for a BFR, this can be a pretty hot issue. It's sometimes have to separate the =legal= requirements for something with the =practical= reality of what takes place in the real world. A lot of people, including some FSDO personnel and DEs will tell you that it =does= count. Unfortunately, Lynch's confusing "maybe yes, maybe no" answer in the FAQ didn't help the situation.

(BTW, FWIW, the reason that it doesn't count is that 61.56 refers to a "pilot" certificate, rating, or operating privilege. A CFI certificate is not a pilot certificate. They are separated throughout the FAR)
 

Boilermaker21

New Member
thanks for the replys guys.....i think id feel a little strange askin a guy who doesnt really know me and barely remembers giving me the checkride to sign me off for something that occured a while ago, but ill give it some thought.....but, i havent been instructing lately so it might not hurt to go out and have a review with someone.....
 

Ralgha

Well-Known Member
I called the local FSDO the other day and the guy said it does count as a BFR. Granted FSDO word is not law, but still. Besides, though the CFI doesn't specifically say it is testing for proficiency (which is what's required by the letter of the law for it to count as a BFR), I challenge you to present me a DE or inspector that will give a CFI ticket to someone who isn't proficient. I bet you can't do it.
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
Anytime you do a check ride with the FAA or a DE your proficiency is subject to question. Even if you are there for a CFI "certificate" they can pull your ratings if they want to.

Hence the CFI checkride is sufficient for the "Flight Review"

Section 709 rides are also considered "Flight Reviews"
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I challenge you to present me a DE or inspector that will give a CFI ticket to someone who isn't proficient. I bet you can't do it.

[/ QUOTE ]That's irrelevant. What happens for all practical purposes doesn't affect the regulatory interpretation. (BTW, I don't necessary agree with the policy. An initial CFI or the addition of a CFI rating =should= count for exactly the reasons you say)

From a pure regulation standpoint, the FAR treats instructor certificates separately from pilot certificates. Staring with

==============================
§ 61.1 Applicability and definitions.
(a) This part prescribes:
(1) The requirements for issuing =pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor certificates= and ratings; the conditions under which those certificates and ratings are necessary; and the privileges and limitations of those certificates and ratings.
(2) The requirements for issuing =pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor= authorizations; the conditions under which those authorizations are necessary; and the privileges and limitations of those authorizations.
(3) The requirements for issuing =pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor= certificates and ratings for persons who have taken courses approved by the Administrator under other parts of this chapter.
==============================

The differentiation continues throughout the FAR and general FAA policy with amazing consistency, from medical certificate requirements (a CFI doesn't need one unless he's also acting as PIC) to the requirement to have each certificate available when exercising that certificate's privileges to the requirement that, in order to teach in an aircraft, a CFI must have both "A pilot certificate =and= flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating" (61.195(b)(1).

One may exist, but it would be hard to find an FAR that =does= treat the flight instructor certificate as a pilot certificate. (can you?)

On the other hand, I'm not surprised that your FSDO says that it counts. Lynch really screwed up the FAQ on this one. It ends up saying, yes it counts, so long as it covers the tasks and you get the FR endorsement., which can be said for complex transition training also or a simple checkout also. A lot of people read the "yes it counts" part and stop.

It would be nice to have a final, solid, official answer to this one. I'd rather see everyone do it the same way, even if it's "wrong" than get have an incident or accident and have my currency determined by which part of the US it happened in.

For now, all we have is the FAQ, an FAA Eastern Region legal counsel opinion, and FSDOs going every which way.

FYI, here are the FAQ and the legal opinion:

=FAQ==========================
QUESTION: The particular question is whether a flight instructor who passes a flight instructor practical test (for initial issuance or a CFI rating addition or for a reinstatement) is or is not exempt from needing a § 61.56 Flight Review for the next two years, since the reg. specifically says PILOT proficiency check.” § 6l.56 d - allows this exemption for a person who has"... passed a PILOT proficiency check.." not needing to accomplish a flight review for the next 2 years.

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.56(d); If the examiner also evaluates the applicant's piloting skills then YES, “. . . a flight instructor practical test (for initial issuance or a CFI rating addition or for a reinstatement) . . .” would meet the requirements of a § 61.56 Flight Review. However, to make sure the applicant gets credit for successful completion of the Flight Review, the examiner should record that the § 61.56 Flight Review was satisfactorily completed in the applicant's logbook.
==============================

==Legal Opinion==================
1 Aviation Plaza
Room 561
Jamaica, NY 11434

RE: Interpretation of FAR 61.56(d)

Dear Mr. Dennstaedt:

This is in response to your letter dated August 25, 2001, wherein you ask whether an airman can satisfy the flight review requirement under 14 C.F.R. (Federal Aviation Regulation [FAR]) 61.56 by passing a practical test to become a certified flight instructor (CFI), as required by FAR 61.183.

Under FAR 61.56(c)(1), one may not act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft unless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, he has "accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor." Under FAR 61.56(c)(2), the airman must receive a logbook endorsement from the authorized instructor certifying that he has satisfactorily completed the review. Under FAR 61.56(a), a flight review must include: (1) a review of the current general operating and flight rules of Part 91; and (2) a review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate.

Under FAR 61.56(d), however, the flight review requirement of FAR 61.56(c)(1) does not apply to one who has "passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate rating, or operating privilege."

The issue you raise is whether passing a practical test to become a CFI can fall within the exception to the flight review requirement that is provided by FAR 61.56(d). Under FAR 183(h), to be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating, the applicant must "pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought." The FAA Practical Test Standards (PTS) for the airplane flight instructor examiner (sic) requires that the examiner ensure that the flight instructor applicant has the "ability to perform the procedures and maneuvers included in the standards to at least the commercial pilot skill level."

Thus, the instructor has broad discretion in conducting a flight review. A CFI practical test encompasses the demonstration of various basic maneuvers that an instructor is likely to cover in a flight review. Incorporating a flight review into the CFI practical test could be accomplished, therefore, with little, if any difficulty.

Accordingly, a CFI practical test will not per se fulfill the flight review requirement. A practical test for a CFI rating under FAR 61.183, taken within 24 months of a prior flight review, can readily meet the flight review requirement of FAR 61.56(d), however, if the examiner is satisfied that a flight review endorsement can be given. To ensure that the CFI applicant gets credit for successful completion of the flight review, however, he or she should ask the examiner to conduct the CFI oral and practical test so as to satisfy the flight review requirements as well, and to make a logbook endorsement for the flight review upon completion of the examination.

If you have additional inquiries, please contact Zachary M. Berman of this office at (718) 553-3258.

Sincerely,


Loretta E. Alkalay

(FAA Regional Counsel, Eastern Region)
==============================
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
Ran into this problem when trying to get checked out in order to rent a plane. CFI perusing the logbook asked when the last BFR was, I told him an instrument check 7 months prior, to which a copy was in the logbook itself; but that in fact, didn't really need one . He tried to claim that the mil checkride didn't apply for civilian purposes, and more than likely, a "civilian" BFR would be required for civilian aircraft.

Interesting interpretation.
 

SUSPilot

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Ran into this problem when trying to get checked out in order to rent a plane. CFI perusing the logbook asked when the last BFR was, I told him an instrument check 7 months prior, to which a copy was in the logbook itself; but that in fact, didn't really need one . He tried to claim that the mil checkride didn't apply for civilian purposes, and more than likely, a "civilian" BFR would be required for civilian aircraft.

Interesting interpretation.

[/ QUOTE ]

In your case Mike the CFI was wrong. The following is 14CFR 61.56(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review requiredby this section."
 

Boilermaker21

New Member
I talked to the guy who gave me the checkride, the teacher in my last class 30 min's ago actually, and he said that the initial CFI ride does count as a BFR........?.....
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
Technically it DOES NOT count. But that's the problem with the FARS. Everyone (including the FAA and all the FSDOs) interprets them differently. There is absoloutely NO consistency within the FAA.

What it comes down to is taking your chances. If you get violated and the FAA goes through your book and the guy looking at it takes the stance that the CFI doesn't count then add one more violation to the count. If you get a guy who believes it does count then you lucked out.

I think the initial CFI should count but what do I know. Not long ago I thought CFIs needed a 2nd class in order to get paid - but in reality they don't even need a medical (in most cases). Go figure.
 

Cosmo1999

Well-Known Member
I have been given two different answers by the FSDO here in SLC. My interpretation is that while the CFI ride is not a pilot certificate it still is a proficency check for an operating privledge.You need to get the CFI Certificate for the privledge of teaching students how to fly. Your proficency is also being tested during this check. I would say that the CFI Checkride is a pilot proficency check not for a pilot certificate but for an operating privledge.. I could be wrong on this one but it makes sense to me. I asked the FAA Inspector who did my first checkride and he told me no it doesnt count. We got into a debate about it a few months back as my BFR was about to expire. I called the FSDO again and a different inspector told me that it counts as the BFR. I never really got a straight answer so when I did my yearly procifency flight/written test with the Chief Pilot I just asked him to sign off my BFR anyway just in case an inspector ever went through my logbook and saw it in a different way. Thats the bad thing about the regs, there are lots of ways to interpret them. 61.56(d) states "anyone who has passed a pilot proficency check conducted for a pilot certificate, rating, OR operating privledge need not accomplish the flight review required by this section." It seems to me like since giving dual is a privledge allowed by getting the CFI certificate, the CFI checkride is a checkride not for a pilot certificate, but for an operating privledge.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I talked to the guy who gave me the checkride, the teacher in my last class 30 min's ago actually, and he said that the initial CFI ride does count as a BFR........?.....

[/ QUOTE ]Here's a proposal for handling the inconsistency. Ask for the extra endorsement. If the examiner/inspector/check pilot says, "you don't need it", simply tell her that

1. in some FAA regions they don't count the ride as BFR
2. The FAA Designee Standardization unit of the FAA recommends that the BFR endorsement be given anyway (you can bring a copy of the FAQ section)
3. Even if it's not required in =this= FSDO region, it is in others and you'd prefer to err on the safe side.
 

Boilermaker21

New Member
I agree totally that the CFI ride should count as a BFR....It is much more involved and tests you to a much greater level than any BFR would....so basically on a practical level it definatley counts to me, but as far as reg's go everyone seems to have a little different take on the issue.....
 

PeanuckleCRJ

Poodle Wrangler
"operating privilege"


Of course it counts as a BFR...how the heck is a CFI cert not an operating privilege????

For crying out loud.. if it didnt count as a BFR i would have been out of currency for about half of my instructing "career." It amazes me some of the odd ideas that people get about things with weird implications. I have never heard of this before.
 

Buzo

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
"operating privilege"


Of course it counts as a BFR...how the heck is a CFI cert not an operating privilege????

For crying out loud.. if it didnt count as a BFR i would have been out of currency for about half of my instructing "career." It amazes me some of the odd ideas that people get about things with weird implications. I have never heard of this before.

[/ QUOTE ]

The CFI cert doesn't give you an operating privilege. It gives you the privilege to teach. Most of the FSDO's I have talked to don't count it, the FAA oppinion is it doesn't count, and AOPA says it doesn't count. It is everyones choice whether they want to test it or not, but I am not willing to risk my certs on my own or someone elses non binding opinion.

When I took my MEI ride I asked the Examiner for the endorsement. He said no problem, and he said it wasn't automatic.
 
Top