CFI Billing...how do you bill for time?

I didn't want you to think I was putting your opinion on the back burner
Oh, my ego is =way= too big to ever think that!

Seriously, thank you for the kind words.

BTW, there may be business reasons for the policy (good or bad ones). It may be a model that works for them. Perhaps they found that bunching things into a short lesson just isn't an effective teaching method. Who knows? If they're right, then those 1-hour quickie lessons may end up costing you more money in the long run. Maybe they found that an odd 1-hour lesson here and there messes it their schedule - working on a 2-hour block scheduling model, a 1-hour block might effectively mean 1 hour of down time. In that sense, it's really no different than when I went to Whole Foods last week at 7:15 am only to find that they didn't open until 8. What h=the heck? Who ever heard of a supermarket that waited until 8 to open???!!!

Obviously, that kind of situation is a bit unfair to the student who can only catch brief moments for a lesson. If that's the situation where you are, their flexibility may be dependent on whether they have a monopoly on the airfield and how many students they handle. Places hurting for business tend to be more flexible than those that don't.
 
?? You mean you only charge for ground time?

That's what I got from that post. You're HIRED! LMAO...All kidding aside, I'm sure you meant from HI to BYE, period. I see no problem with that either.

To reply to what MidlifeFlyer said about the business hurting (or NOT rather), and this is one of their reasons for doing business as such; they are a 'relatively' (I used relatively loosely) new flight school...have been in business for about 2 years, maybe. I won't get into the details but in short, the two owners worked for the other flight school at the field. They didn't like the way that things were being handled so they decided to start their own gig. From the way things are looking, it's not doing bad. The owners are insane when it comes to keeping an aircraft well maintained, and they're decent people. If for whatever reason I can't get in with my old instructor somehow, I will probably fly with these guys. If I have to make sure that I have time to fly close to two hours each time, then so be it. I would like to see something happen with the guy I was with...absolutely flawless with the way he handles things in the cockpit. His teaching style is second to none that I have seen so far (all 4 of them!...but still). He really enjoys what he does and his students are all very successful...and happy. That's what it's all about, no?
 
Our school schedules everyone in 2 hour blocks. . .BUT. . .the customer is only charged what they actually fly/spend with instructor.

For example. Two hour block scheduled at 12 to 2pm. Myself and a student only fly 1.3, with .5 of ground. Well, the student is billed 1.8.

And of course, if they go over the two hours, same thing. They are billed for however long they used the resources.
 
I stand behind the idea that a good CFI/school worth the time, is worth the money. I hope no one here thinks that I support otherwise.
never took your statement as anything other than that
What about those students who are so well driven, aren't a scheduling nightmare, and never cancel? Why should we pay for unused time like the guy/gal who is a pain in your side?
you shouldn't you are rare any probably a great find for the instructor you are working with
 
Our school schedules everyone in 2 hour blocks. . .BUT. . .the customer is only charged what they actually fly/spend with instructor.

For example. Two hour block scheduled at 12 to 2pm. Myself and a student only fly 1.3, with .5 of ground. Well, the student is billed 1.8.

And of course, if they go over the two hours, same thing. They are billed for however long they used the resources.

this is how i bill also
 
Customer pays Hobbs time, and I get paid on hobbs time also. Hi to Bye minus hobbs = total time spent with customer is getting charged.

I think I understand what you're saying, but you're still not making sense.

It SOUNDS as though you're taking the total time you spend with a student, subtract the hobbs time, and bill them for that amount. So if you spend two hours with them, fly 1.5, you'd bill them for 0.5.

Obviously that doesn't make sense.

What I think you're trying to say is that you bill strictly off hobbs time. It doesn't matter how long you spend with them, you only bill them for the time you're flying. So if you spend two hours with them, and fly for 1.5 hours, you only charge them for 1.5.

Is this correct?
 
I think I understand what you're saying, but you're still not making sense.

It SOUNDS as though you're taking the total time you spend with a student, subtract the hobbs time, and bill them for that amount. So if you spend two hours with them, fly 1.5, you'd bill them for 0.5.

Obviously that doesn't make sense.

What I think you're trying to say is that you bill strictly off hobbs time. It doesn't matter how long you spend with them, you only bill them for the time you're flying. So if you spend two hours with them, and fly for 1.5 hours, you only charge them for 1.5.

Is this correct?

I think he's trying to say his GROUND time is charged from HI to BYE (minus hobbs), and his INSTRUCTOR time is based off of the hobbs...is THIS correct?
 
this is how i bill also

I don't mind this idea one bit. It's pretty much the same as paying for only time spent with the CFI, in that you have to simply schedule a 2 hour block. This is the exact same way the old school I was going to charged. Everything was SCHEDULED in 2 hour blocks, but the customer was still only charged actual hobbs and total time spent with the CFI.
 
For example, I want to go up for an hour that day because it's all that my schedule will allow (work, or otherwise). Flight school and CFI both reap the benefit of that 2 hours regardless of how much their services were used.

I've been an active CFI for 6 yrs and I can count my manhood how many flight lessons I had for less than 60 minutes. I'm sure folks do it and I could see it on a rare occasion, but I've never done it.

For example: even if the student meets me at the airplane and has the preflight done (which you couldn't do given your scenario), by the time I give him a quick brief on what we're going to do (a review from what I assigned him on the last lesson), start, taxi and t/o you're already 15 minutes into the hour. At my school I normally have to land 15 minutes prior to the next pilot's reservation to have time to refuel, tiedown, and do the recordkeeping necessary to turn the airplane over to the next pilot. If I didn't debrief, that's only 30 minutes of air time. Unless you polishing your landings, there's not much else you can do in 60 minutes.

I grew up in the military flight system and like them I believe the best learning is done in the debrief. It's not uncommon for me to spend as much time debriefing as we spent in the training area. On a 1.2 hr flight we might spend 35-45 minutes in the training area learning a new skill -- I could easily spend that much time talking about it on the ground afterwards. Especially when I'm introducing new maneuvers. That might seem like overkill, but when I compare the flight logs of my students to other instructors who are more interested in flying instead of teaching, my students learn skills in less flight time because of the debriefs. I had a pilot tell me once that you could write a book on every landing because there was so much you could discuss. I didn't believe it then, but I do now.

I charge for this debrief, of course. But I think it's a bargin compared to my peers who don't debrief on the ground. Instead, they debrief during the next flight at 4 times the price. They use this method: "Okay, turn west and climb to 3000 ft. Remember last week when we did stalls? The thing you did wrong was..." The airplane is the worst environment to lecture.

Just for comparison, we also sell tour flights for 30 minutes of air time. It's normally a .7 hobbs when it's all done. I give the passengers a 5 min brief on where we are going, the life vest, have them sign a paper and walk them to the plane. After the flight I skip refueling and simply tie it down and walk them back. It's a 90 minute evolution fro "hi" to "bye" for 30 minutes of flight.

If all you have is 60 minutes, go sit in the airplane and review your procedures. You can do that all by yourself and it's free. It's the best chair flying you can ever get. I always do that when I'm transitioning to a new airplane. I sit there and do checklists while mentally flying from the airport to the training area. I simulate engine failures, practice stalls, etc. 60 minutes of that once a week will make you a pro in no time.

Blue skies,
Rob
 
I've been an active CFI for 6 yrs and I can count my manhood how many flight lessons I had for less than 60 minutes. I'm sure folks do it and I could see it on a rare occasion, but I've never done it.

For example: even if the student meets me at the airplane and has the preflight done (which you couldn't do given your scenario), by the time I give him a quick brief on what we're going to do (a review from what I assigned him on the last lesson), start, taxi and t/o you're already 15 minutes into the hour. At my school I normally have to land 15 minutes prior to the next pilot's reservation to have time to refuel, tiedown, and do the recordkeeping necessary to turn the airplane over to the next pilot. If I didn't debrief, that's only 30 minutes of air time. Unless you polishing your landings, there's not much else you can do in 60 minutes.

I grew up in the military flight system and like them I believe the best learning is done in the debrief. It's not uncommon for me to spend as much time debriefing as we spent in the training area. On a 1.2 hr flight we might spend 35-45 minutes in the training area learning a new skill -- I could easily spend that much time talking about it on the ground afterwards. Especially when I'm introducing new maneuvers. That might seem like overkill, but when I compare the flight logs of my students to other instructors who are more interested in flying instead of teaching, my students learn skills in less flight time because of the debriefs. I had a pilot tell me once that you could write a book on every landing because there was so much you could discuss. I didn't believe it then, but I do now.

I charge for this debrief, of course. But I think it's a bargin compared to my peers who don't debrief on the ground. Instead, they debrief during the next flight at 4 times the price. They use this method: "Okay, turn west and climb to 3000 ft. Remember last week when we did stalls? The thing you did wrong was..." The airplane is the worst environment to lecture.

Just for comparison, we also sell tour flights for 30 minutes of air time. It's normally a .7 hobbs when it's all done. I give the passengers a 5 min brief on where we are going, the life vest, have them sign a paper and walk them to the plane. After the flight I skip refueling and simply tie it down and walk them back. It's a 90 minute evolution fro "hi" to "bye" for 30 minutes of flight.

If all you have is 60 minutes, go sit in the airplane and review your procedures. You can do that all by yourself and it's free. It's the best chair flying you can ever get. I always do that when I'm transitioning to a new airplane. I sit there and do checklists while mentally flying from the airport to the training area. I simulate engine failures, practice stalls, etc. 60 minutes of that once a week will make you a pro in no time.

Blue skies,
Rob

I appreciate the input, sir. You make many valuable points. I think more or less, though, I was just using it as as example of not being able to fully utilize the whole two hours. I can definitely see how it could be a waste of time if all you did was go up for 30 minutes at a time; heck, you're practically having to redo/relearn what you did last time you flew, just to make sure you have it because 30 minutes is a such a short time in the air! I thank you for your time to make the lengthy reply. All of you have been of much help in this topic of discussion. I will definitely try to schedule my time around being able to use at least 2 hours or so of instructor time each time I go in for a lesson. I'll keep the "elaborate" debrief in mind as well. Thanks again...all of you!! You guys :rawk:!!!
 
<SNIP>

I grew up in the military flight system and like them I believe the best learning is done in the debrief. It's not uncommon for me to spend as much time debriefing as we spent in the training area. On a 1.2 hr flight we might spend 35-45 minutes in the training area learning a new skill -- I could easily spend that much time talking about it on the ground afterwards. Especially when I'm introducing new maneuvers. That might seem like overkill, but when I compare the flight logs of my students to other instructors who are more interested in flying instead of teaching, my students learn skills in less flight time because of the debriefs. I had a pilot tell me once that you could write a book on every landing because there was so much you could discuss. I didn't believe it then, but I do now.

I charge for this debrief, of course. But I think it's a bargin compared to my peers who don't debrief on the ground. Instead, they debrief during the next flight at 4 times the price. They use this method: "Okay, turn west and climb to 3000 ft. Remember last week when we did stalls? The thing you did wrong was..." The airplane is the worst environment to lecture.

<SNIP>

Blue skies,
Rob

Do you train folks for their private or just higher ratings? So by these guidelines, you have about a .5 debrief for each flight hour? Just curious, that turns 40 hours for a private into 50-60 hours?
 
One advantage to the scheduled "block" method is that a student has a pre-determined time frame to work with. If you scheduled me for 2 hours, I'll gave you two hours (students don't see the planning and preparation beforehand that made that 2 hours of instruction a value). If you go over, then you pay a little more for the extra time. I tried to be as prepared as possible so we really never went under the scheduled block (Not instructing currently). When using the stopwatch method, I sometimes worried that my students felt like they couldn't ask a question without being gouged for it. I didn't want this to happen so I didn't like using the stopwatch.

Something to watch out for. If ANY flight school or instructor is over-charging you...call 'em out on it. If they don't have a satisfactory explanation on why they're charging what they are, walk...actually run away. Don't wait to do it, it's your $$ and it doesn't need to be handed over to someone dishonest and shady. I'd say this happens more often than people may like to talk about. Good thread.
 
Do you train folks for their private or just higher ratings? So by these guidelines, you have about a .5 debrief for each flight hour? Just curious, that turns 40 hours for a private into 50-60 hours?
I'm curious - what do you mean? How does a .5 debrief on the ground increase the number of flight hours?
 
this is how i bill also
This is also how I bill. Scheduled for a block time which is essentially just reserving the aircraft (usually 2 hour blocks) but you are charged for the hobbs time. I charge for ground the same way. I block my own availability and then charge for only the time I actually spend teaching.

I also try to get multiple people to come when I am teaching groundschool because I will divide the cost by however many students are with me. For example, I conduct a 2 hour class with 3 students, I will charge each of them .7. Not only have I found that a lot of people learn better in a small group than alone sometimes (peer pressure to perform) but it saves them $$.
 
I'm curious - what do you mean? How does a .5 debrief on the ground increase the number of flight hours?

Oh duh, it doesn't. It was late when I was posting that.

I guess I was thinking of my own experience as a "adult" (> 30) student when I got my private - I was fully prepared for each lesson, did self-study ground school and written in a few weeks etc. My training was old school - short preflight chat, maybe go over 1-2 questions while filing in the logbook, etc.

I got my private at a hair over 41 hours. When I read Rob's post I was thinking "geez, 0.5 tagged on to each flight hour really pumps the total hours & expense up".
 
So what do we do when it comes time for a student to make solo flights? I'm not so much talking about your first time up by yourself with the the instructor standing on the side of the runway observing...I'm talking about when the student is starting to fly alone out to the training area or for X/C's. Do you still charge for the time that you have no real affiliation with your student (because you're "available" or otherwise)? Reg's state that there is a mandatory 20 hours of dual instruction req'd. Aside from brand new solo students needing a CFI as stated above, how would you go about billing for the guy/gal who is signed off and wants to go up and practice solo?
 
Back
Top