Cessna Caravan EX Review

[MNFlyboy]

From my training, our Vans have TKS and while we could have about 2hrs of flow time, it wasn't meant to stay in the ice. It was taught, turn it on before you get ice, and get ready to plan an exit strategy. An hour into icing, probably a good time to get out. Higher, lower, etc. I'm sure with 875hp+ there's more power to get out.

 

[Dan208B]

however there isn't a "10 degree" flap setting, the flaps available are "Up, T/O Appr., and Land." .

Thoughts on this? I find there are many situations in the old caravan that flaps 20 is perfect for landing, and 30 would be pretty bad, and vice versa. I'm sure I could make the other flaps settings work, but just a preference. i.e. shorter runway with very gusty winds 20 seems to be better as it will stick and not float (unless it's very short and then you need 30 and slower vref).

 

[USMCmech]

Thoughts on this? I find there are many situations in the old caravan that flaps 20 is perfect for landing, and 30 would be pretty bad, and vice versa. I'm sure I could make the other flaps settings work, but just a preference. i.e. shorter runway with very gusty winds 20 seems to be better as it will stick and not float (unless it's very short and then you need 30 and slower vref).

I routinely landed the van with zero flaps.

I'm going to go with the landing setting on the flaps is more of a suggestion than a rule.

 

[TallFlyer]

So how much fluid is 208 minutes, and what does this magic juice cost?

 

[z987k]

I don't fly a TKS machine under Part 135, but I'd like to point out how a pilot does not need to use TKS the entire flight. It's not like fuel. They can get out of the ice and turn the system off, thus conserving TKS fluid.

If I think I'll be in IMC the entire trip, I make sure the TKS tanks have enough fluid to cover the entire trip. Most of the time, I only need enough fluid to climb on top, cruise in the clear, then descend into the muck and shoot an approach.

You're not going to get on top of much in a van.

 

[TallFlyer]

You're not going to get on top of much in a van.

Depends on what you're carrying. If you're carrying pax, probably not. Freight? I'm up at 180 pretty regularly in the Navajo which gets me on top of most of what I encounter here in CO. Surely a pimped out Van can do that.

 

[block30]

On this van I have 208 minutes of anti-ice with a full tank. So realistically you could safely do a trip to Kake and back.

What? The 208 has 208 minutes of TKS coverage?

 

[block30]

Only for about 2 hours.. when Cessna gets it approved (Just to give Pat a hard time). It also has logistical limitations on availability up here, so either pack extra fluid along or don't plan a trip to far away. Also the cost of it just bleeding out into the ether is revenue lost. We have run our 950 Garrett with boots for two winters in the Southeast Alaska ice maker and have only had 1 divert which was due to freezing rain.

So Cessna has NOT gotten TKS FIKI approval on the Van yet? I thought TKS had been approved. I could *definitely* be wrong though.

 

[z987k]

Depends on what you're carrying. If you're carrying pax, probably not. Freight? I'm up at 180 pretty regularly in the Navajo which gets me on top of most of what I encounter here in CO. Surely a pimped out Van can do that.

Oh, ya the jo is happy at 180. Maybe the EX will be, but the old one at only 675hp isn't going to be, especially carrying ice.

 

[dustoff17]

Only for about 2 hours.. when Cessna gets it approved (Just to give Pat a hard time). It also has logistical limitations on availability up here, so either pack extra fluid along or don't plan a trip to far away. Also the cost of it just bleeding out into the ether is revenue lost. We have run our 950 Garrett with boots for two winters in the Southeast Alaska ice maker and have only had 1 divert which was due to freezing rain.

Sure, if you run TKS on MAX flow! However, if you turn it on low BEFORE you get into the icing (as stated in the POH), you should have 6-8 hours.

 

[Itchy]

Sure, if you run TKS on MAX flow! However, if you turn it on low BEFORE you get into the icing (as stated in the POH), you should have 6-8 hours.

Hmmm. You better check the math before you launch into a long icing flight.....A little after three hours you will be wondering where you went wrong...

Gallon lasts 10 - 4 -2 minutes for each respective mode.

 

[Tommay85]

So Cessna has NOT gotten TKS FIKI approval on the Van yet? I thought TKS had been approved. I could *definitely* be wrong though.

Wiggins Airways guys are running TKS. Flight Express was actually involved in development and certification of the Caravan in icing with TKS. That was the B model(?) though.

 

[jrh]

So how much fluid is 208 minutes, and what does this magic juice cost?

In the FIKI SR22s I fly, one gallon lasts about 15 minutes on "normal" flow rate and the plane carries 8 gallons, for about 120 minutes of use. Each gallon varies widely in cost based on how it is purchased. It can be had for $12/gallon if purchased in a 55 gallon barrel or as much as $35/gallon if purchased in 1 gallon increments at some expensive FBOs. My local FBO sells it for $25/gallon in one gallon increments, which I think is a pretty "average" price. I believe it has a shelf life of approximately two years.

I don't know what the Caravan uses or carries, but I imagine it would be a higher flow rate, in order to protect larger surfaces.

 

[Capt. Chaos]

Wiggins Airways guys are running TKS. Flight Express was actually involved in development and certification of the Caravan in icing with TKS. That was the B model(?) though.

The no FIKI limitation is just on the new EX Van, waiting on approval for the engine and prop combination or something. Will be waiting to see if we have the FIKI up to 9062lbs club all to ourselves. As a side note the texas Garrett conversion still has the weight penalty.. Roger Roger

Sure, if you run TKS on MAX flow! However, if you turn it on low BEFORE you get into the icing (as stated in the POH), you should have 6-8 hours.

For this area you better plan on max flow.. as everything is over ocean, mountains and glaciers (as seen on reality tv).

Depends on what you're carrying. If you're carrying pax, probably not. Freight? I'm up at 180 pretty regularly in the Navajo which gets me on top of most of what I encounter here in CO. Surely a pimped out Van can do that.

The pimped van is climbing when the Sitka Navajo's are headed down for the R-route MEA's in the ice. I am sure Pat's machine will be close in performance to ours and will be able to stomp the 'Ho in a climb as well. An that 30min max at 12000 with pax... might be viewed as kind of a guideline some days.

 

[Tommay85]

You ever experiment with using it as a de-ice? Works well on a 210/Baron and uses half the fluid.

 

[jrh]

You ever experiment with using it as a de-ice? Works well on a 210/Baron and uses half the fluid.

Personally, I don't believe this is an area pilots, outside of flight test programs, should be "experimenting" with. The main problem I immediately see is, "What happens if the experiment fails?" If the TKS fluid doesn't work as a de-ice in a particular set of conditions/airframe for some reason, now you're in a world of hurt. If an accident/incident were to happen, it will be difficult to explain to the company or FAA why you had a problem with several gallons of TKS remaining in the tanks.

I can't speak for 210s or Barons, but I know the SR22 flies like crap with ice on it. Being in a plane that flies like crap, and maybe not being able to make it stop flying like crap...no thanks, not for me.

The POH/AFM specifically states the system is to be used as an anti-icing measure. I don't know why the manufacturer wrote it this way, but I'm sure they had a reason. I don't see any reason to experiment with this any more than I'd care to experiment with red lines on various instruments.

 

[dustoff17]

Sure, if you run TKS on MAX flow! However, if you turn it on low BEFORE you get into the icing (as stated in the POH), you should have 6-8 hours.

Hmmm. You better check the math before you launch into a long icing flight.....A little after three hours you will be wondering where you went wrong...

Gallon lasts 10 - 4 -2 minutes for each respective mode.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply 6-8 hours CONTINUOUS flow of TKS while in icing conditions. I was thinking 6-8 hours of flight using TKS as designed.

 

[Tommay85]

Personally, I don't believe this is an area pilots, outside of flight test programs, should be "experimenting" with. The main problem I immediately see is, "What happens if the experiment fails?" If the TKS fluid doesn't work as a de-ice in a particular set of conditions/airframe for some reason, now you're in a world of hurt. If an accident/incident were to happen, it will be difficult to explain to the company or FAA why you had a problem with several gallons of TKS remaining in the tanks.

I can't speak for 210s or Barons, but I know the SR22 flies like crap with ice on it. Being in a plane that flies like crap, and maybe not being able to make it stop flying like crap...no thanks, not for me.

The POH/AFM specifically states the system is to be used as an anti-icing measure. I don't know why the manufacturer wrote it this way, but I'm sure they had a reason. I don't see any reason to experiment with this any more than I'd care to experiment with red lines on various instruments.

Valid point for sure. I waited until springtime to try it out, but the guys that had been through a couple winters swore by using it as a de-ice to extend the range. I was too much of a wuss, which is probably a good thing. Things I hate, I like to consume, so I was more than happy to "waste" it. Hated HATED filling the tank though. Some how it gets on your face and in your mouth. Never figured that out... haha

I thought the 210 flew well enough from a controllability standpoint, but that wing REALLY wanted to be clean to work right. The Baron absolutely demanded clean props to remain being an airplane. The 99 for that matter too. Maybe a beechcraft thing. I've seen the wings so slogged with crap that, in my mind, there was no way the air was flowing around the ice in any kind of organized manner, but if the props are clean, good to go!

 

[spbrian]

The POH/AFM specifically states the system is to be used as an anti-icing measure. I don't know why the manufacturer wrote it this way, but I'm sure they had a reason. I don't see any reason to experiment with this any more than I'd care to experiment with red lines on various instruments.

The reason why it is written as an "anti-icing measure" is how the fluid works. A way to think about it is that the fluid acts as an airborne type 4 de-icing fluid. Instead of the ice sticking to the leading edges of the aircraft it hits the TKS fluid first and then slides off with the fluid off of the surface instead of sticking.. If ice was to attach to the wing prior to TKS fluid activation, there is no way for the cold fluid to melt it off (not it's purpose) and the ice would then possibly block the outlet and render the system useless.

 

[Tommay85]

The reason why it is written as an "anti-icing measure" is how the fluid works. A way to think about it is that the fluid acts as an airborne type 4 de-icing fluid. Instead of the ice sticking to the leading edges of the aircraft it hits the TKS fluid first and then slides off with the fluid off of the surface instead of sticking.. If ice was to attach to the wing prior to TKS fluid activation, there is no way for the cold fluid to melt it off (not it's purpose) and the ice would then possibly block the outlet and render the system useless.

It melts it from underneath. Takes about 10 minutes to melt enough for it to break off though.