Cat II/IIII Roll-out Guidance

Orange Anchor

Orange Anchor

New Member
Friend sent me a note saying that some recent revisions to charts have a note (not necessarily in the same location on the chart) which says that 'ILS Loc unusable for roll-out guidance". I do not remember this being part of our Cat II/III requirements. The old 737-300/400 could not track once on the runway and it was a disconnect on touchdown. The 'bus can track but at my old house, it was not a requirement.

Does your ops require roll-out guidance be avail for Cat II/III ops?
 
I know at Horizon we were only CAT I, CAT I+, CAT II and CAT III-A. Everything other than CAT I had to be flown with the HUD.

When setting up the HUD that QX uses, you set in Runway Length, TDZ Elevation and Glideslope angle.

You would get an actual picture of the runway once you touched down and were rolling out, and from what I remember it would show you the end of the runway approaching as well.

We had to set the localizer freq 3 places (on both Nav/Comm's and the standby) or else we wouldn't get a "CAT III-A arm" for the HUD.
 
747-400 Operator Certified to IIIb

Aircraft has rollout capability, but no mention of LOC rollout requirement in All Weather Briefing.

Good question though. I wonder what our brain trust thinks about that?

In another note, I like the new Jepps that have all the mins for the runway on one plate.
 
It is apparently airline specific. The point being with that requirement, that company can not shoot that approach. ??

We are now part 91 and a few times we have arrived at airport ABC and controllers have asked us if we are Cat II/III certified. Our answer is, "Hey.. we're -91 and we can shoot a look-see. Gimme vectors"

We were at one field a while back and it was 1600 RVR. We shot the approach and saw ZILCH. We went around. We held for a while and TWO regionals came in, shot the approach and LANDED. We came back around for a second approach and again, ZILCH at mins. We diverted but we had to shake our heads about the two that made it in. Mins? Right.......
 
minitour said:
Haven't seen it. Is that a combination of Cat II and III or I, II and III?

-mini
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CAT II/III were always on one plate, but now certain updates have CATI/II/III on the same plate so you can brief your all-weather operations and CAT I. Then if you have an equipment failure on the aircraft or runway, you have the information to de-grade the approach, time permitting of course.

Orange Anchor said:
It is apparently airline specific. The point being with that requirement, that company can not shoot that approach. ??

We are now part 91 and a few times we have arrived at airport ABC and controllers have asked us if we are Cat II/III certified. Our answer is, "Hey.. we're -91 and we can shoot a look-see. Gimme vectors"

We were at one field a while back and it was 1600 RVR. We shot the approach and saw ZILCH. We went around. We held for a while and TWO regionals came in, shot the approach and LANDED. We came back around for a second approach and again, ZILCH at mins. We diverted but we had to shake our heads about the two that made it in. Mins? Right.......
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Maybe the mighty Citation stirred the air enough to get the vis?

Anyway, I remember seeing an ad in Controller a few years ago for a Baron with CAT II.
 
Polar742 said:
CAT II/III were always on one plate, but now certain updates have CATI/II/III on the same plate so you can brief your all-weather operations and CAT I. Then if you have an equipment failure on the aircraft or runway, you have the information to de-grade the approach, time permitting of course.
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Ah. Musta been the NACO plates on my mind with II and III being separate. Haven't seen the I/II/III on one yet. I'm kind of surprised that it doesn't add too much clutter to the plate. Interesting.

-mini
 
minitour said:
Ah. Musta been the NACO plates on my mind with II and III being separate. Haven't seen the I/II/III on one yet. I'm kind of surprised that it doesn't add too much clutter to the plate. Interesting.

-mini
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It's all on the minimums bar for the Jepps. I hadn't seen them until this year, maybe DEC. There was a bulletin in the NAV DATA book (yes I read it. no, I don't have it memorized, but I do read it)

Not much clutter at all.
 
Polar742 said:
Anyway, I remember seeing an ad in Controller a few years ago for a Baron with CAT II.
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Check airman friend of mine hopped through innumerable hoops to get his C-185 Cat II. It has to be airport specific and he said the oral was longer than anything he ever endured for a type ride. But he had to smile when guys were holding and atc cleared, "Cessna 123AB, cleared ILS 36..." The cert required a lot of on-going maint and paperwork and he eventually let it lapse. he was an enterprising fellow. He had a cell phone company approach him to put up a tower. They were going to pay his a big wad but Dave said, "tell you what.. just let me and my family members have free access.. no cell phone bills EVER." They did and he made out like a bandit.
 
Baronman said:
Don't hate....Con-gra-du-late!
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Ain't no biggie for me. I wasn't on the RJ. Not saying anything except twice we went to mins and saw zilch.. lobster bisque.. and two guys that were reportedly -121 landed. Good for them. Hope the experience doesn't come back to bite them in the butt when they repeat the performance. We often take exactly the wrong lessons from successful outcomes where we bend the rules.
 
Orange Anchor said:
It is apparently airline specific. The point being with that requirement, that company can not shoot that approach. ??

We are now part 91 and a few times we have arrived at airport ABC and controllers have asked us if we are Cat II/III certified. Our answer is, "Hey.. we're -91 and we can shoot a look-see. Gimme vectors"

We were at one field a while back and it was 1600 RVR. We shot the approach and saw ZILCH. We went around. We held for a while and TWO regionals came in, shot the approach and LANDED. We came back around for a second approach and again, ZILCH at mins. We diverted but we had to shake our heads about the two that made it in. Mins? Right.......
Click to expand...

Your mins on a part 91 are 200'. The mins on CAT II are 100', usually. That makes a lot of difference at 1600 RVR, and if that's what was being reported, they probably saw enough to land at 100' legally.
 
Orange Anchor said:
Friend sent me a note saying that some recent revisions to charts have a note (not necessarily in the same location on the chart) which says that 'ILS Loc unusable for roll-out guidance". I do not remember this being part of our Cat II/III requirements. The old 737-300/400 could not track once on the runway and it was a disconnect on touchdown. The 'bus can track but at my old house, it was not a requirement.

Does your ops require roll-out guidance be avail for Cat II/III ops?
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Some countries have a requirement to use the higher CAT IIIa (700 rvr) mins if the rollout is not available. I believe Canada is one of those, actually, if I recall correctly. If the rollout is u/s and the CAT IIIa is published, that is probably what they expect.
 
seagull said:
Your mins on a part 91 are 200'. The mins on CAT II are 100', usually. That makes a lot of difference at 1600 RVR, and if that's what was being reported, they probably saw enough to land at 100' legally.
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What regional carriers are Cat II/III?

Today was an easy one.. indef 200 and 1/2 mile vis. Odd too in that during vectors for final we went by a flock of geese flying on top of the flat deck. Ducks VFR on top??:D
 
Orange Anchor said:
What regional carriers are Cat II/III?
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I wanna say ExpressJet (Cat II), PSA (Cat II), Horizon (Cat III), IIRC.

Maybe more...

I forgot to note: In the earlier discussion, about the No Rollout Guidance Notam, our DO told us that any CAT II/III we have in our chart set, we can shoot. I'll keep an eye out for the No Rollout.
 
I know when Horizon went to De Havilland/Bombardier back when we had Dash 8-100's and wanted to know about putting HUD's in the airplanes, they pretty much laughed at us.

At Horizon the HUD's keep things moving during those nasty days up in the PacNW.

The Q400, we were certified for Single-Engine CAT-III(A)...which would get us down to RVR 600/400/400. I do believe the CRJ700 was later certified for the same.

All CAT-III approaches were hand flown, the Q4's autopilot can't turn onto the LOC correctly, so I wouldn't trust it to fly me down to 50ft RA.
 
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