Career...meet brick wall

TFaudree_ERAU

Mashin' dem buttons
Ladies and gents,

Some of you may have seen my post in the Jobs Available section. Some of you know my situation, many don't. Let me elaborate.

I graduated from ERAU Daytona in the summer of '05. I didn't have any jobs lined up, so I planned on staying in the area, obtaining my CFI and instructing down there until I had enough hours to be competitive for a 135 or regional job. Upon graduation, I went to work at the speedway, trying to make enough money to pay for CFI training, while also starting to pay back the student loans, rent and general living expenses. About a month after I started the job, I got a call from a guy who owns the FBO at which I worked the summer prior. He offered to pay for me to complete my CFI training there, with his airplane and instructor, then go to work as a CFI and do 135 flying on the side when I met the hour requirements. Needless to say, I jumped on the offer.

Jump ahead 8 months. I was flying a reasonable amount of hours per month, but there were no advancement opportunities at this 2300' airfield in a county with a population of about 10,000 and 2 stoplights; more cows than people. You know, that kind of place. I was still receiving emails from the career services dept. at ERAU, and I received one in May with what I had been looking for. The job was in Hilton Head, SC, as the single pilot operator for a VFR 135 operation, flying a 206 Stationair, with an advertised upgrade to a 208 Grand Caravan in the following months. I submitted my resume on Friday evening and received a phone call early Monday morning. One week later, I was paying out of pocket to fly the FBO's 182RG, 3 hours each way, down to HXD to meet with the company owner. Two weeks later, I had the job.

I packed my stuff and moved down on the 4th of June. Prior to that, I had to come down twice to attend meetings with the FAA in Columbia, SC as the company was going through its initial application phase. On the 5th of June, my nightmare was delivered to the airport. It was a leased (thankfullY) 1972 U206F Stationair with one KX-170B Nav/Comm, an inop CDI, and the most horrific interior you'd ever seen. I think it took about 3 seconds to determine that this old bird had a long way to go before being ready to carry the rich and famous that lived in and around Hilton Head. The good thing was that it was a brand new engine and prop, decent exterior paint and only 1700 TTAF. More on that later...

The airplane was coming up on annual (a big red flag in my opinion when it comes to buying or leasing an airplane) so we made arrangements to have it done at the FBO that I had just left in Virginia. There were numerous airworthy items that were addressed at the annual, and the bill came to nearly $3000, which totally blew my boss away. He raised hell for weeks about it, constantly on the phone with the A&P to have the price reduced. I assisted with the annual and can assure you that everything that was done needed to be done, and the A&P only charged for the actual work done and parts used.

I had to fly out to Macon, GA to get the CDI repaired prior to the check ride. In addition to that, the day that I flew up to Columbia to meet with the FAA for the aircraft conformity inspection, I became painfully aware that the transponder was inop. The FAA didn't know it, since they don't do too many in depth tests and checks on the airplane, but I ended up being grounded there overnight while the MX shop fixed it. Cause: cut wire on the antenna cable. I didn't know the transponder was inop because I had never flown into airspace where it was required. Another item the aircraft owner dumped on us to be fixed.

We had been waiting for quite some time for the pilot check ride, which is the last task to complete during the certification phase aside from actually receiving the certificate. At the request of the FAA, I flew an hour and a half up to Greenville, SC to meet with our certification team operations inspector. At the end of the oral portion of the ride, he outlined the approaches he wanted me to execute. One was an ILS, one was an NDB, the other a VOR or LOC only. I had to stop him when he asked for the ILS and NDB...our CDI is only a single vertical needle and there is no NDB. Since approaches aren't a huge requirement for a VFR 135 check ride, he let it go with just a VOR and a LOC only approach. As he got into the airplane to begin the checkride, his jaw literally dropped as he realized in what poor shape this airplane was. At the conclusion of the checkride, he stated "I want you guys to be successful, but you have GOT to get another airplane...IMMEDIATELY". I was more than happy to relay that information to the company owner.

The rest of the certification process went relatively well, considering it IS the FAA we're dealing with. On September 15th, we became a certified US Air Carrier. There were talks of holding a reception here in the office to celebrate, inviting potential clients and news reporters to attend. None of that ever happened. I began work on brochures to distribute and ads to be published in news papers. I developed a website, brought it online and am currently maintaining it. I've had PLENTY of time to perfect my Front Page and Dreamweaver skills, as I've flown ONE revenue flight since certification.

We get plenty of phone calls, but its back to my earlier comment about a single engine airplane with low time and solid engine. The customer doesn't care about whats under the surface. They want to see 2 engines with 3 bladed props, humming along while they're riding in a nice cabin class leather interior with their refreshment center in the back. I've actually had people immediately hang up after they ask (in my best hillbilly voice) "does that thang have wun or tew enjuns?" and me replying "one". It has become obvious that we need a twin.

So the search began. We first focused on a Cessna 402. I've found some respectable ones on the market, but the insurance companies are telling us that they will only give us a hull value of approximately 130,000. Most of them on the market are going for nearly 200,000 or more due to the spar strap AD that costs 35,000. He doesn't want to go through the hassle of having a private aircraft valuation done to increase the hull value for the insurance. Then we focused on a 421. This airplane is the only one he has a viable argument against; the high maintenance and overhaul costs of the geared engines. Then we focus on a 414. He doesn't think the resale value will be there in 5 years. What the basis of his argument is, I'm not sure, but if anyone wants to let me in on some little secret, I'm all ears.

Now he's focusing on a Piper Seneca. It solves our problem of a twin, but doesn't give the customer much room to move. He actually spoke with a bank loan officer the other day (a friend of his) and asked him how he would feel about flying in a smaller twin. The reply was that he "think its an insult to have to sit in and airplane with [his] butt at nearly the same level as his feet; don't like to feel like [his] ass is scraping the ground". Unfortunately, those are both characteristics of a Seneca. BUT...it does solve the problem of "wun or tew enjuns". On Friday the 16th, he spoke with the owner of a Seneca that has a sale ad in Trade-A-Plane about leasing the airplane to us with the option to buy after 6 months. The owner wanted to see a sample lease contract before deciding. My boss told him that he would draft a lease and have it to him by Monday or Tuesday. Here it is, Monday the 26th, and nothing has been sent yet.

Now, here's the kicker. It takes approximately 2 to 3 months to add an airplane to a certificate. The lease on the 206 is up on May 15th; just over a month and a half away. Do the math. There are 3 requirements to maintain an air carrier certificate. A pilot, a plane and a base of operations. Without either one of those, the FAA can yank the certificate and you have to start from scratch. You can bet that if that happens, I'm out of here for sure. But my question for you is this...

Do you think I'm crazy for sticking around this long? I've been told time and time again about all these great things he has planned; managing a Caravan for a high end resort, buying out a current 135 jet operator, Diamond Aircraft dealership, etc, etc...but NOTHING has come about yet. The pay is decent, but I'm doing ZERO flying. Aside from taking the airplane up a few times a week to keep it running, I'm not doing anything but sitting here browsing JC and checking my email. Since I've come here, I've accumulated 40 hours. I've gotten on as a CFI with a flying club down here, but there isn't anything going on with that. The owner of the club's aircraft is a UPS pilot and also owns a Navajo. He's said on numerous occasions that he'll call me when he's going anywhere for pleasure and I'll get the PIC time. I'm going to pay out of pocket again to go get my tailwheel endorsement and tow gliders this summer. I just want flight time right now.

I've all but ruled out the 121 world of flying. I've been exposed to 135 flying and I have to admit that I think it is my cup of tea. If I could make a respectable living by flying for a small to medium size 135 company. I don't need to drive fancy cars, live in a huge house or put a $15,000 ring on my girlfriend or wife's finger. I just want to fly nice airplanes for a living and be able to provide for a family. I've started looking around at other jobs, as I don't know how much more of this I can take. I don't have enough hours to be competitive at most 135 companies, yet I'm making decent money here and can't afford a pay cut if I go somewhere to instruct. So...thats my brick wall.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I'm hoping you guys can provide insight, encouragement or suggestions on how to deal with my situation. I remember Dough and others saying that you shouldn't be afraid to speak out here, as you never know what will come from it. This is my speaking out...
 
You never said how much time you have. You hinted at it (must be over 500 hours) but the 135 PIC times are set in stone. You could find a place that hires SIC's, but you're probably going to have to move, at least initially.

And yes, I would've been outta there ASAP when I saw I wasn't flying. Your main goal at the stage you are at is flight time (or parker pen time).
 
It depends on what you want. I don't mind getting payed to do nothing, so I'd stay. You might want to make a move if you would like to see a faster career progression. I have a buddy who is going through the whole 135 operator certification deal and he says that it is a big pain. I'm surprised that your boss has made it this far with all the hoops the FAA makes people jump through.
 
Right now, I have 675 TT, 245 XC, 45 instrument and 35 multi, 150 dual given. I know the 135 PIC times very well. I would not mind flying shotgun for a while if it meant good pay and lots of flying time right off the bat.

It depends on what you want. I don't mind getting payed to do nothing, so I'd stay. You might want to make a move if you would like to see a faster career progression. I have a buddy who is going through the whole 135 operator certification deal and he says that it is a big pain. I'm surprised that your boss has made it this far with all the hoops the FAA makes people jump through.

He's very determined, but I hope its not pointless determination. He has zero debt in any of his companies and he has a lot of money saved up to run on zero revenue for a while. On the other hand, he balks at the idea of having to pay $175,000 for a nice cabin class airplane that may need engines in 500 hours or 5 years. I keep reminding him of the phrase "you have to pay to play in this game". Option one is to skimp on the airplane and shock/horrify the passengers when they climb (or in the case of a 206, CRAWL) aboard, never to see them again after they get done...or option two, pay a higher price up front with the guarantee that you'll impress the client and have them return for more business later.

One of the reasons he has spent very little time focusing on this company is because he just started a 5 year consulting contract with a major Canadian MRO (he's a native Canadian) that just opened up a 2nd location in Montana.
 
Are you paid a salary right now that is livable or are you paid by the flight hour? Either way, it is hard living on a dream and a prayer.
 
A school just south of DAB used two VERY nice 414's and hardly ever flew them. Even nice cabin class twins aren't a bet for making money. In fact, the only place I've seen cabin class twins make an operator money (outside of freight) is if a corporation bought the plane and put it on the certificate as a leaseback to offset their own operating costs, and paid the operator a monthly fee.

If you're making "quite a bit more" than a regional FO would make, my guess would be you're making in the mid-$30's or up. I'd stay to make that kinda money and fly whenever you can to build up to 135 PIC mins, then bolt. Almost all 135 SIC jobs pay crap.
 
I'd get outta there.

In aviation, talk is cheap. Until the plane is on the ramp, the certificate is in your pocket, etc., you can't count on anything.

Even if you are making decent money, how much is it costing you to not have a future at this place?

I think it sounds like a bad deal all the way around. I'd chalk it up to a learning experience and jump ship to anywhere reputable that will keep you in the air -- banner towing, CFIing, anything.
 
Ladies and gents,

Do you think I'm crazy for sticking around this long? I've been told time and time again about all these great things he has planned; managing a Caravan for a high end resort, buying out a current 135 jet operator, Diamond Aircraft dealership, etc, etc...but NOTHING has come about yet.

A lot of talk and no action is a red flag to me. It sounds like your boss is a "nice" enough guy (especially paying you with no revenue coming in) however he really needs to either step up to the plate or YOU need to move on to something else. I have dealt with and worked with guys like the one you are describing. I recommend (if you haven't already done so) that you two have a heart to heart and get your cards out on the table. If he wants to do this right, he's going to have to bite the bullet and get the right aircraft NOW, damn the torpedoes. The worst possible thing you can do in running your own business (especially in this industry) is do it half way and expect great results...not gonna happen.

As for you, if you don't see willingness on his part to go whole hog and accept the results (whether success or failure) I would say it's time to move on to a better opportunity, even though it may be a "downgrade" for a time. Better to start again with a clean slate than to endure another potential year or two of non-committed operational style, and as the inevitable result, have the owner fold up shop.

Anyone can talk a great game...I would want to see his business plan, in writing, and adherence to that plan. If he doesn't want to do that, or the plans are "talking" about what's going to happen, then I'd be out of there.

My .02
 
Now, here's the kicker. It takes approximately 2 to 3 months to add an airplane to a certificate. The lease on the 206 is up on May 15th; just over a month and a half away. Do the math. There are 3 requirements to maintain an air carrier certificate. A pilot, a plane and a base of operations. Without either one of those, the FAA can yank the certificate and you have to start from scratch. You can bet that if that happens, I'm out of here for sure. But my question for you is this...

It should not take 2-3 months to add an aircraft to a 135 certificate unless they find a ton of things wrong during the conformity check. As long as you are actively searching for an aircraft, the Feds usually give you a 30 day grace period to add the new aircraft.

On the topic of a Seneca, if it isn't a Seneca II-V, don't even bother. The Seneca I's are pigs that are barely worthy as training aircraft. I operate a Seneca II for my 135 charter ops and most people don't mind the club seating in back. I have had 4 people back there before for a quick one hour flight. They all were amazed how quiet it was.

Michael
 
If you're goal is to be an airline pilot, jump ship and head for the regionals.

It should not take 2-3 months to add an aircraft to a 135 certificate unless they find a ton of things wrong during the conformity check.
Dude, our certificate sat on their desk for almost a month before they called and told us it was ready. We're actually in the database as being certified in the beginning of September but our certificate isn't dated until the 15th. They WILL take that long down here. Things move slower in the south I guess.

And it is a II. I know all about the Is and the Vs are wayyyyy too expensive.
 
Well, then try a fractional. But, in the airline business, time is money. The more time you waste now will cost you MAJOR bucks and quality of life issues at the other end.

Heck, I'd go get a job a Frontier Flying Service in Fairbanks before I'd sit around not flying at this point in your career. And I HATE Fairbanks with a passion.
 
I don't need to drive fancy cars, live in a huge house or put a $15,000 ring on my girlfriend or wife's finger.

Let's hope your wife doesn't know about the girlfriend. Unless she's into that kind of stuff. :nana2: And let's hope the girlfriend is okay with a less expensive ring. Just kidding. Hee hee. On a more serious note, why are you against going to the regionals? Is it because of the low pay or is it because of the low pay that can't sustain your cost of living? If it's the latter, I can understand. But if it's the former, you should reconsider.
 
On a more serious note, why are you against going to the regionals? Is it because of the low pay or is it because of the low pay that can't sustain your cost of living? If it's the latter, I can understand. But if it's the former, you should reconsider.


The latter. And I may be mistaken, but I don't like the state of the airlines right now.
 
Let me rephrase. I ain't going to the regionals.


Dude, our certificate sat on their desk for almost a month before they called and told us it was ready. We're actually in the database as being certified in the beginning of September but our certificate isn't dated until the 15th. They WILL take that long down here. Things move slower in the south I guess.

And it is a II. I know all about the Is and the Vs are wayyyyy too expensive.

There are ways to make them move faster. Trust, me, I was doing this --> :banghead: for 8 months during my certification process. I figured out that if I called 3 times a week to check up on the progress, things happened fast. In fact, I just started requesting 4 hour meeting at the FSDO so there wasn't any paper shuffle back and forth.

If you continue getting a salary, just stick with it and get a twin. Continue using the 206 until you add the new plane. They can't take the cert away if you do it this way.

Michael
 
A school just south of DAB used two VERY nice 414's and hardly ever flew them. Even nice cabin class twins aren't a bet for making money.

Their problem was they thought that by charging 2x the going rate people would think the "kid" flying was some kind of pro and they were getting good service...:insane:
 
Nice post. You could always be an author :sarcasm: I kid I kid...
I would search out a good instructing gig that builds pretty good time. If you are interested in Freight don't worry that much about multi time. I came here with 30 hours of multi but all I needed was the ticket. I know alot of schools back in Florida that are desperate for instructors. At the school I used to flight instruct , the instructors have more students then they know what to do with. You can easily build well over 120 hours per month without even trying. Good planes and varied flying make it interesting. Down side its in Palm Beach County so living is going to be kinda high but you can find stuff.
or
If your making enough spare bank now just buy time while working for your dip of a boss and actively look for other stuff so when he tanks you have at least something lined up.
Get to 800 or so and let one of your buddies who works for the freight company in Columbus know. He'll get you an interview.
 
I've all but ruled out the 121 world of flying. I've been exposed to 135 flying and I have to admit that I think it is my cup of tea. If I could make a respectable living by flying for a small to medium size 135 company.

Tawdrier_ERA,

I like the way you write, it brought back some good and well, not so good memories. You also appear to be an intelligent and motivated person. With that being said however, you're looking at a career choice in aviation through the eyes of a 23 year old pilot with a little over 600 hours. What I mean by that, and BTW, I was the same way, is that I thought I would be happy if I could just get into the left seat of a C402 flying charters for a small FOB. However, once you get to that next level, the view gets very old, the hours get very long, the paycheck gets very small and you find yourself dreaming about the next step to something bigger, fancier, faster, and more stable with a bigger paycheck. It's just the natural progression of things. You'll look back in 20 years and think, "What the heck was I think'n back then..." It isn't about the money at age 23...it will be 20-30 yrs later when you have mouths to feed and clothe, schools and mortgages to pay and retirement to finance.

When I got started in aviation, it was not unusual to see charters being flown in small piston twins. I even flew several in C210's and an a A36 Bonanza during VFR trips. While it seemed at the time to be a great way to build time toward the next rung on the aviation ladder, it just didn't seem like a real money making proposition for the business or the pilot. I still made most of my money as a CFI and even that wasn't very much. FBO's generally made most of their profits from gas sales, maintenance and tie-down/storage fees. They don't make money on charters or flight instruction. I watched my boss struggle with the books to make ends meet every month and watched him drive away in a old junker that was probably 20,000 miles pass due for the scrap heap. That left me with an indelible impression and burning desire to not ever put myself in that situation when it came to aviation. That was over 25 yrs ago and that vision still haunts me of trying to make a few dollars as a CFI and small charter outfit at what was a well established FBO.

I would suspect that in today's world of rock bottom ticket prices to ride around in Jungle or Barbie Jets to any tumbleweed town in the US with 10 round trips a day, plus, Fractional like Net Jets, I just can't see a big demand for pax service using small piston singles or twin engine aircraft. Most people don't want to fly around in what they perceive as "puddle jumpers" that look like they're held together with duck tape and a prayer. I remember when folks use to to tease us about the size of the Metroliner and how reluctant they were to get in it. Heck, now even the whale (B747) crews tease us (A300, B7576 crews) about flying the "light twin" jets. Nowadays folks (those you want to see again as repeat customers) want to see a shiney new jet parked on the ramp.

About the only niche in aviation using small twins or singles worth pursuing is in on-demand freight and even that market is becoming saturated. The old saying holds true....Want to make a million $ in aviation...start with a billion and watch it dwindle.

If I were you I'd concentrate on building my time to the 1200hr mark by working as a CFI and if you want to pursue a career in 135 ops than apply at an already established and reputable 135 company. Starting a 135 ops from the ground up like your boss is trying to do, especially since he doesn't want to put up the money nor as any big investors backing the operation is a recipe for disaster and may find yourself in hot water with the Feds.

FWIW
 
I'd get outta there.

In aviation, talk is cheap. Until the plane is on the ramp, the certificate is in your pocket, etc., you can't count on anything.

Even if you are making decent money, how much is it costing you to not have a future at this place?

I think it sounds like a bad deal all the way around. I'd chalk it up to a learning experience and jump ship to anywhere reputable that will keep you in the air -- banner towing, CFIing, anything.

Words of wisdom.

Even if this guy gets a twin it'll be ages before you'll be getting any PIC time in it. My dad is weeks away from a single pilot 135 certificate and his owner is like "oh we need to start looking at Citations cause I have a buyer for the King Air." The guy makes no sense.

Watch out for big dreamers early on in your aviation career, sure its fun to be part of creating something from the ground up but that usually means you're missing out on actually flying. Good luck.
 
Back
Top