CAPT Program: Questions and Answers

Re: Where is Seth?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Look. You guys are expecting waaaay to much out of Seth. He's pretty high up in CAPT and will steer away from anything that requires a hard answer that might not put CAPT in a good light. Like I said before, he's a PR guy (not that there is anything wrong with that). What do you expect?

He's not going to tell you anything that could possibly put the CAPT program in a negative light, especially since so many of the professional pilots at jetcareers don't like their program. End of story....

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree, however, in the very first post, Seth did say:

[ QUOTE ]
As you have probably guessed, we have been monitoring the threads at JetCareers regarding the program and I've been given the opportunity to address the questions and concerns about the program. Two ground rules about any submissions or threads, I will not answer personal attacks on anyone at the program and I will not answer any questions about the recently settled lawsuit. Other than that everything is fair game.

With that in mind, feel free to ask me anything and I will answer (or debate) to the best of my ability.

[/ QUOTE ]

The very least he could do is acknowledge the questions, even if it is just to say that he can not answer it. Currently he has not lived up to his word.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, I apologize for not being on the forum as much lately - I've been heads down at work and I'm finishing up a Masters degree course which is consuming a good deal of my free time.

On to your questions:

The total number of students that have started the program since inception is 90.

There have been a total of 26 graduates of the program from those 90. 18 are now employed. A total of 5 graduates were hired in July.

If you would like to discuss prices, please contact Al Astbury at 1-877-577-2278. He will be happy to discuss the experienced pilot program, the different levels that one can come in at, and the price structure.

Finally, the standing invitation still stands for anyone who wishes to talk to our students and staff.

Regards,

Seth
 
Re: Where is Seth?

[ QUOTE ]
Those are certainly some interesting numbers. Why would anyone pay such coinage for the program?

[/ QUOTE ]

Students choose to enter CAPT to get comprehensive pilot training in a disciplined environment that mirrors the airline culture and training footprint. This in turn, accelerates placement at the regional airlines, which, over time, improves compensation, seniority and quality of life.

Update: Two more of our graduates have been placed with employers bringing the total for July to 7 and an overall placement (of our graduates) to 20 out of 26. The remainder are currently scheduled for interviews.

Regards,

Seth
 
Re: Where is Seth?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would anyone pay such coinage for the program?

[/ QUOTE ]

. . . [because it] accelerates placement [ . . . ], which, over time, improves compensation, seniority and quality of life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Translation: You are paying an earnings-acceleration premium. I would be interested to see a discounted net present value comparison analysis which compares the following:

1. Discounted net present value of total lifetime earnings via CAPT route, accounting for both the cost and the benefit of the acceleration premium.

2. Discounted net present value of total lifetime earnings via FBO instruction route, accounting for lifetime interest earned on the money that otherwise would have been spent as the acceleration premium.
 
Re: Where is Seth?

"Translation: You are paying an earnings-acceleration premium."

Further translation: You can pay a heck of a lot of money to buy yourself an interview, 300 hours, and a big jet type rating, at CAPT.

OR

You can follow non-airline culture and training footprint, spend a lot less money, spend some time as a CFI, and end up in the same place. Not to mention, in my opinion, you'll be a much more well rounded pilot than if you went to CAPT.

It might take you a year longer to get to the regionals, thereby sacrificing some seniority and quality of life. However, you can take pride in the fact you didn't need your flight academy to "place" you in a job, but that you earned the right to that interview through hours spent teaching others the art of flying. Sort of like how a 767 Captain teaches a new F/O.

To answer your question, though. If it took a year longer to get to the regionals via the traditional route, you'd be out a year of first year regional F/O pay. That's about what you can make as a CFI. Then, you'd be behind a year on your Capts upgrade, but many people bypass upgrades for quality of life reasons. So it's really up to the individual. In a perfect world, you'd extend the model out until age 60 and then you could say you had an extra year at top salary, maybe 140K. For that to be accurate, though, you'd have to upgrade to higher paying equipment and the left seat at the first chance you get and it seems to me that those who do that are the ones with the worst quality of life....you're always the junior guy on the list.

Another reason to consider the CFI route. Every check airman I've ever known has been a CFI at one time. Airline check airmen make more money than regular line captains. Also, being a check airman sets you apart when looking to move up to a major.
 
Re: Where is Seth?

I dont understand why everyone is bitching about the program.

If you don't like it, don't do it.
About being a well rounded pilot:
Lufthansa gets almost all their pilots through their own programm, meaning that a 300 hour or so pilot gets to fly either the B737 or A320. Havn't heard of any crashes in a long time. These people get out of flightschool and learn on the job, i don't see whats wrong with that.

So a program like CAPT might be expensive and not necessary , but it gives people who have spent their college years or even first couple of years in their career field the chance to switch over to flying as fast as possible.
 
Re: Where is Seth?

[ QUOTE ]
Lufthansa gets almost all their pilots through their own programm

[/ QUOTE ]

And who pays for the program? Luftansa or the student?

The true threatening quality of the idea behind programs like CAPT is that the student is paying for something that should be payed for by an employer. If ERAU had their way, we would all have to pay them to be trained to be 'airline-ready' (whatever that means) as a prerequisite for employment at an air carrier.

Now, one could argue that we all pay for our certificates and ratings to be able to work as a professional pilot, and that CAPT is not all that different. The difference I see between the two is that a flight instructor with XXXX hours has the ability to work (as a professional pilot) and build hours and experience at his or her own independent will, whereas a CAPT graduate will be dependent upon the program to find employment for them. In the case of CAPT, the pilot's ability to operate outside of the CAPT bubble is essentially waived, or at least carries some strong repercussions with it.

I realize that air carriers in other countries do things differently than we do here. Personally, I think the unspoken system of student-to-instructor-to-maybe cargo-to-airline(or corporate/charter/fractional) is the best system out there. More importantly, it works. Although these 'ab-initio' programs exists elsewhere, I can't help but notice on a daily basis how many non-U.S. citizens would step on each other's faces to get a flying job with a carrier here in the good ol' USA.

Programs like CAPT have a habit of fizzling and dissappearing in a big poof of smoke. When this happens, there always seems to be a group of students standing around saying "So what now?......Hello?!". At least when it happens to an FBO (or an academy with more realistic goals), the students can simply take their business elsewhere and continue where they left off. Imagine being dropped into the market with 300 hours, a type-rating, no CFI, and a big loan payment at the end of the month.
 
Re: Where is Seth?

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't like it, don't do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if you don't do it, these programs still affect you. Gulfstream affects you. TAB would have affected you. Anytime a wannabe tosses down a wad of cash in exchange for an interview or a job, it affects all of us. There is a reason that regional airline pay is so low, and it's because the air carriers know that they can get away with it. Programs like CAPT, Gulfstream, TAB, etc. are effectively demonstrating to those same air carriers that QOL and pay are not at rock bottom, and that they can continue to cut pay and treat pilot groups even worse without seeing a decrease in the height of the stack of resumes on the HR desk.

I'm not saying that CAPT was specifically created to damage the aviation industry (from the pilot's perspective). Unfortunately, even with the best intentions, there will be a negative result.
 
Re: Where is Seth?

I agree that you're dependant on the programm , but ab initio is an alternative thats starting to come out in the states too. Maybe an altered version of the european one.

The lufthansa flight student has to pay for 50% of the costs. The other 50% costs is provided by Lufthansa.

The part the student has to pay will be given to you by Lufthansa aswell but will be deducted from your salary over the first couple of years so it's possible for anyone to become a pilot with them, not just people that have the money so thats a huge difference.

All i was saying is just that it's not fair to jump on the CAPT programm. As seth said, it works, so from an economical point of view, why not offer it. If we want to prevent PFJ / PFT from happening, then everyone would have to work on it, and as long as people go for programms like that, the programms will stay. No use arguing about it, it's not CAPT's or TAB's or whoever's fault, its just the way it is.
 
Re: Where is Seth?

[ QUOTE ]
but ab initio is an alternative thats starting to come out in the states too.

[/ QUOTE ]

People have been saying this for much longer than I've been around. It really isn't "starting to come out". People have been trying to use the concept of ab initio to make money for a long time. As much as people want to believe in these programs, they simply do not function properly in the U.S. aviation industry. I think that it's for a variety of reasons, including deregulation and capitalism, but that's another thread.

[ QUOTE ]
As seth said, it works, so from an economical point of view, why not offer it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know it's a little unfair to bring this up since Seth can't talk about it, but CAPT didn't work for a whole lot of people. There was a big lawsuit settlement that we don't know the details of, but since both sides (particularly the students) can't talk about the settlement, it's a good guess that the settlement was in the students' favor. I hope ERAU did the right thing with that.

[ QUOTE ]
it's not CAPT's or TAB's or whoever's fault, its just the way it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. It's not CAPT's or TAB's or Gulfstream's fault. They see a chance to make money and they're taking it. Can't blame them for that. Welcome to America.

Who's fault is it? Unfortunately it's our own. By not researching the cause and effect of the choices we make now, we only hurt ourselves in future. People justify programs like CAPT because they say it will increase your total career earnings by getting you there faster. People also say that they don't mind making next to nothing at a regional airline because they will make a lot of money later in life at a major airline. The problem is that those big money flying jobs won't exist by the time they get there since they did everything in their power to show the airline management that they'd be willing to work for much, much less.

We all need to start showing people the big picture. The CAPT management will not be working with you at an airline when your salary and benefits gets cut again. Having an extra year of seniority won't matter when you get furloughed or the airline goes bankrupt. The aviation industry is smaller than many people realize. The actions you take, from day 1, absolutely matter to everyone else. Strive to do things that strengthen the profession, not tear it down.
 
Re: Where is Seth?

"All i was saying is just that it's not fair to jump on the CAPT programm."

This is an internet message board. You are free to express your opinion, as I am mine. That's what's fair...

You're getting ready to start at ERAU with zero time. I'm a UPS 757/767 pilot who graduated from Riddle in 83. I have my opinion about ERAU and the CAPT program, which is based on my experience with the career, so far. I think what would be UNfair would be for me to sit quietly and not tell you what I think. After all, didn't you come to jetcareers to hear what successful airlines pilots have to say?

That said, it's just my opinion, and I'm sure you'll find some 300 hour 747 F/E's at Focus Air that think CAPT's a great way to go.

Unlike Europe, becoming a pilot in the USA is more of a free market kinda thing and genereal aviation is a viable alternative to ab inito. CAPT, and programs like it, are one alternative. We are lucky, though, in that in the USA we have other choices. If the European model is so great, by the way, why are you headed for Florida?
 
Re: Where is Seth?

I never said the european model is so great. I was just referring to the ab initio program of Lufthansa.

I'm headed to florida because I myself like the aviation industry in the US alot more. It's more flying orientated than the EU version.
A friend of mine spend over 60K Euros (about 72.000 dollars) on his pilot training and isn't even multi rated.
In Europe you either fly for an airline or you have no chance. In the states it's either to find a job flying as a CFI or Charter or whatever.
You can't really compare the two systems, but flight training is alot funner in the US I suppose, since so many people from europe come to the states to learn to fly, never heard of a case the other way around.
 
Re: Where is Seth?

Fun has nothing to do with it. AbInito programs for European airlines work because they are 1)the only game in town and 2)they are extremely competitive. Very few people who apply for those training slots are successful in getting one. The EU airlines controls the supply of pilots, in a way like the AMA does medical school numbers in the US. If some entity in the US controlled the number of Airline Transport Pilot slots here, you would have the same high end competition to recieve one of those "slots". Many would apply, few would be chosen. The rest would go to some other country where flight training was only regulated by how much money you could come up with (sound familiar?)

Instead, in the US we have a free-for-all where anybody with money/credit can achieve the quals, then it's up to competitive forces in the marketplace to see who is successful. Companies like DCA, PanAm, are feeding on a "ponzi"-like scheme where you need students for the new instructors to teach, so you get them by promising the new studs that they can become instructors to build time, which leads to the need for ever more students yada yada..

CAPT at least breaks that mold, but it is a one shot deal, either get hired by whoever is interviewing (Few) at whatever pay they are paying (LOW), or you're done. Let's see you pay back that loan now.

All in all, it seems to be a pretty messed up system.

If I was starting over now, I'd try and get my quals in the least expensive way possible, and then try to succeed on my own efforts and merits, instead of paying outrageous amounts of money for so called "shortcuts."
 
Re: Where is Seth?

"All in all, it seems to be a pretty messed up system."

I didn't think it was messed up until I started seeing ads about these academies and their high placement rates with x, y, and z airlines as part their marketing. Back in the day, you built up your qualifications and experience, then went out looking for a job. You didn't need your academy to "place" you.
 
Re: Where is Seth?

I agree, that's the part that's messed up!!
grin.gif
 
Re: Where is Seth?

[ QUOTE ]
Very few people who apply for those training slots are successful in getting one. The EU airlines controls the supply of pilots, in a way like the AMA does medical school numbers in the US. If some entity in the US controlled the number of Airline Transport Pilot slots here, you would have the same high end competition to recieve one of those "slots". Many would apply, few would be chosen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically, the ab initio programs in the EU are akin to the pilot selection here in the states for the armed forces. It's results driven, not money driven.
 
[ QUOTE ]
You know : "being a better pilot". That's exactly what I'm scared of.
When i came across Jetcareers my eyes were opened (as i said in another post).

I'm going to Embry Riddle not because of it's name but because I hope to become a well trained pilot. And I just can't imagine how getting 120 credit hours about flying airplanes and aerodynamics and whatever will not make me a better pilot (knowing my stuff- not reputation) than if i get 120 credit hours in business. I just dont understand that.

I want to work for airlines period. Reading here at jet careers has got me pulled towards actualy majoring in airline management instead of aeronautical science, but what i'm scared of is
confused.gif
having a harder time at an airline interview
confused.gif
or being uncertain in some situations while flying the airplane, and just not having the confidence, and knowledge I'd have if i had persued an AS degree, do you know what I'm saying?

I'm not talking about ERAU in specific but just any AS degree- won't that make you a better pilot in the end? I mean common, why would they have the degree at all if it was [censored]? Too expencive, useless, no back up?

[/ QUOTE ]


I know an F-16 pilot who graduated from Fresno State with a degree in Spanish. His degree didn't seem to put a hamper on his training or abilities.
smile.gif
 
My friend who flew F/A-18's in the Navy was a "Forestry" major. Last week, my captain was a "Wildlife Management" major at BYU.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top