Canadair Crash at ASE / Aspen Eagle, Colorado

GypsyPilot said:
I agree. Going in there without an out (passed the MAP) is pretty nuts.
Click to expand...

Well, yeah. But I mean who hasn't had the field in sight on an instrument approach and then suddenly, woops, catastrophe!?

Or is that just me? Guess I need to update the prescription!

...or maybe the proscription?
 
I don't remember our WX mins at my old charter shop but they were very specific as to ceiling, visibility, and where we would go missed and on what approach, LOC vs VOR. I do remember they were much higher than charted mins.

The missed procedure as I understand it past the MAP while circling would be just like any other airport, climb toward the landing runway to MDA and then rejoin the missed approach course. That gets into how would the approach be briefed, if we miss passed X, we will offset right (right of the runway but fly runway heading) climb and make a left turn to a 348 heading to 9100' then left to rejoin the IPKN LOC outbound and continue as published. This is where having a tailwind is a PITA because you are climbing toward rising terrain. And all of this is being done at or near 9000' so your TAS is higher.

I will have to do some more reading on this but shouldn't past the MAP on a circling approach then have to rejoin the obstacle clearance departure procedure, in the case of ASE the SAARD departure? Unless otherwise approved like Skywest. The SAARd is essentially the Lindz without the enroute transitions as I see it by quick glance.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I can't speak for a lot of people. I can barely speak, most of the time. But I understand this just fine, I just also find it ludicrous. The whole point of having second segment data, etc, is to plan for all eventualities in jet aircraft (ie. be able to guarantee climb performance in the event of a missed approach). Like, would I take a PC-12 in to KASE? If the company asked me to and I thought I could get in, yeah. Because that thing realistically crashes at around 70 knots. Like, I might get a PT-6 enema, but there's a pretty decent chance the people in the back would just beak some bones and swear off "little airplanes" for the rest of time.

OTOH, "land or crash" is stupid in a jet, IMHO. You crash at 110 knots in that terrain, and it's curtains for everyone and sympathies all around.
Click to expand...
110? Man that's slow! Try 142 at MLDW! :D
 
cencal83406 said:
110? Man that's slow! Try 142 at MLDW! :D
Click to expand...

By the book, following the procedures, we set 163 a few weeks ago for approach speed.

I think they just didn't even think of some of this stuff down there in their t-shirts in Brazil... o_O
 
Nick said:
By the book, following the procedures, we set 163 a few weeks ago for approach speed.

I think they just didn't even think of some of this stuff down there in their t-shirts in Brazil... o_O
Click to expand...
Where was this? That's stupid fast.
 
staledog said:
At a 91/135 operator I worked for, we actually did get special training and had procedures set in place for Aspen, and other mountain airports. We also did sim training for Aspen. And no pressure. Actually if the WX at ASE was anywhere close to mins we wouldn't attempt it.

I've been in there many times with no problems, and diverted to Rifle or Eagle many times too. Anybody who goes in there better know what they are doing. If not, then you are going to have problems.
Click to expand...

I've got issues with practicing ASE in the sim. The realism of the sim doesn't really shine when something other than the circle to land at JFK.

Well it isn't as clear cut as "I don't go in there unless I have 5 miles and 5000' or whatever benchmark that a company culture would set. As for the arrival and approach usually it is clear cut. You will make it or you have to divert to RIL or Grand Junction.

My worst memories of the place were trying to get in when the weather was not quite bad enough to divert. After defending below minimums a snow squall started to obscure the runway and as someone already mentioned, below minimums and you are a test pilot.

My last clear memory of having to deal with an upset passenger was aboard a Wifi equipped aircraft. The passengers were watching airnav and were questioning every decision we made.
Boris Badenov said:
They brought this up in every bitchjet course I ever took at Simuscam. One of the best things they did. Let me rephrase that: "Possibly the only terribly useful thing they did". Getting out the book and running the numbers on second segment, etc at KASE (provided you can figure out how to do it...I freely admit I couldn't the first time, and neither could anyone else) is, uh, eye-opening. IMS, there's a pretty good argument to be made that even once you get the data, it's incomplete and deceptive.

The general consensus, though, seemed to be that if you miss at 100ft and have an engine failure in the next ~minute or so, unless you're at like 14,000lbs, you are mathematically certain to hit something on the way out, no matter how well you fly the missed. I won't swear to the precision of those numbers, but I'll give you dollars to donuts that if anyone ever actually DOES lose an engine in a twin and misses the approach at the threshold, they'll be hitting something else tout suite. Let's hope we never find out.
Click to expand...

The climb gradient required to fly the missed as published is 5.5% You must maintain this climb until 10000ft

Provided you turn the correct direction... you don't have to do that 5.5% for long but if you don't you are dead.

Anyway something to keep in mind.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
The climb gradient required to fly the missed as published is 5.5% You must maintain this climb until 10000ft

Provided you turn the correct direction... you don't have to do that 5.5% for long but if you don't you are dead.

Anyway something to keep in mind.
Click to expand...

I'm a little fuzzy on the OEI stuff, but for 91/135/121 ops, who is required to have OEI performance to meet the missed procedure?
 
A300Capt said:
That's everyday on the MD11....:eek2:
Click to expand...

When we came up with the approach speed, I actually joked that the only thing that would be up around our airspeed would be the MD-11! We were basically category E if we had to circle, with the gusts pushing the speed around all the way down the approach.

@amorris311 it was into MCI. Very gusty, ice speeds, and right at 75,000 pounds.
 
NewYorkophile said:
I'm a little fuzzy on the OEI stuff, but for 91/135/121 ops, who is required to have OEI performance to meet the missed procedure?
Click to expand...

Part of the "maximum take off weight" list:
1. Structural
2. Runway limit
3. Climb gradient (1.6%)
4. Not to exceed max landing weight at destination (blah blah, fuel/oil consumption, etc)
5. Can meet or exceed balked landing/go around gradient. Standard IAP missed segment is 3.3% (or 3.2...)

I don't have my QRH in front of me, the BeechJet has a chart for missed approach climb performance, pretty easy to use.


:NOTE:
I may be confusing balked landing numbers and OEI go around numbers. I get back to work this weekend, Ill double check what the QRH has.
 
amorris311 said:
Where was this? That's stupid fast.
Click to expand...

190 is stupid fast, with no flaps, speedbrakes, other drag devices, and a permanent 68 degree swept wing. 350 approach penetration speed. Fastest circling speed I ever computed was 214 on a TAC into ROW.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top