Canadair Crash at ASE / Aspen Eagle, Colorado

Boris Badenov said:
That airport is an expletive menace under IFR. As Mike said, one way in, one way out. With an off-airport ILS to guide you up the valley if you miss. Only one of those I'm aware of. If it weren't the playground of the rich, there's absolutely no way that place would be open to IFR traffic tomorrow. Hope everyone got out.
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Now, now... most of the time, flying approaches is like horseshoes and hand grenades. Aspen simply enforces competence, precision... and big brass balls. Landing with 30 kts on the tail is, ah, incompetent.
 
Rifle. 35 minute drive. Easy. Safe. No brainer. Dump folks there all the time when Aspen on flow.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Not to nitpick, but once you establish what a witness saw, you often benefit from asking what a witness thinks if it yields objective data.
"Why do you think it was a yada-yada-yada?"
"I SAW x, y, and z."

It is interesting to note how much speculation does creep into accident reports, both civil and military. Investigations go full circle. Speculation. Calls to end speculation. Accident report with speculation.
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Exactly. I just separate the two items as individual statements. One being "what did you see?" [without "what do you think?"]; then there's "do you have any other remarks or information you'd like to make?" The latter is where I get everything from the witness other than simply what they saw. All of that information gets weighted against the physical evidence at hand. Does it discount, or rule out anything? Does it support known evidence? Does it provide insight to yet-undiscovered evidence? Everything taken in a statement, both raw witness account as well as remarks, will be weighed against those questions. And it can be fairly easy, to a royal pain in the butt, and everything in between; depending on the particular witness.

And you're right about certain amounts of speculation or connecting of dots that may or may not be fully supported by physical evidence, does occur. From the fairly benign in accident investigations, all the way to accident investigations that make some pretty far leaps, such as TWA 800. I'd much rather see a "why" of an accident labled as "could not be conclusively determined from the available recovered evidence", rather than an essentially made-up probable cause that's either thinly supported as a pretty far leap, or even not supported at all.
 
Derg said:
You guys are scaring the crap out of me.
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Don't let it scare ya. Owner operated flight departments vs.135 charter are VERY different. Charter customers tend to be the prom kids renting a limo for the first time kind of crowd. Meaning they act all cool and uppity until it's time to go back home to their Chevy Vega and natty light. Owners tend to at least "act like they've been there" and care about their well being.

I also think it's a pilot problem more than a customer problem. There isn't a job worth your life. If these new (some old) guys would just think like that when some one questions their ADM, decisions would be a lot easier.

I will also echo the fact I've never been pushed to do some thing unsafe. I've been lucky to stay out of 135 though. I flew for one lady who didn't like to fly through a puffy cloud. The last time SUN (which we go to several times a months) was at mins we shot one approach to a miss. As we're climbing out to go to our alt I looked back to tell the boss and he was coming up to tell us to not even bother with another try. In four years he hasn't even questioned an expense account item let alone our ADM. The worst jobs in aviation can be in corporate but the best jobs in aviation are in corporate as we'll. Luckily mine is the latter. :)
 
Just to clarify, when a pilot reports a loss or gain of X knots on final, is he referring to indicated airspeed or groundspeed?
 
I sense that the crew was operating under a different kind of pressure on this flight - not the typical noise coming from the back, "Either you'll get me into Aspen or your replacement will."

With the exception of the third person on board, they were coming in empty to PICK UP passengers and take them to Mexico. If other aircraft landed and they didn't, then their abilities would be questioned by the owner/client:

Them: "Why are you in Rifle?"
You: "It wasn't safe to land at Aspen. You'll have to drive here."
Them: "I watched a string of other bizjets land. Why are you the only one who diverted?"
You: "We tried but the conditions were beyond allowable limits."
Them: "Tell you what. Scratch the flight - I'm calling someone else, I'll never use you guys again, and I'll make sure that everybody knows that your company was the only one that couldn't get into Aspen today."
 
tomokc said:
I sense that the crew was operating under a different kind of pressure on this flight - not the typical noise coming from the back, "Either you'll get me into Aspen or your replacement will."

With the exception of the third person on board, they were coming in empty to PICK UP passengers and take them to Mexico. If other aircraft landed and they didn't, then their abilities would be questioned by the owner/client:

Them: "Why are you in Rifle?"
You: "It wasn't safe to land at Aspen. You'll have to drive here."
Them: "I watched a string of other bizjets land. Why are you the only one who diverted?"
You: "We tried but the conditions were beyond allowable limits."
Them: "Tell you what. Scratch the flight - I'm calling someone else, I'll never use you guys again, and I'll make sure that everybody knows that your company was the only one that couldn't get into Aspen today."
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THIS is real world!
Telling a passenger/client to pound sand and keeping your job/career is rare or, dare I state, non-existent.

My guess is the passenger was the relief Captain for the return flight home.
 
dustoff17 said:
Telling a passenger/client to pound sand and keeping your job/career is rare or, dare I state, non-existent.
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I've done it. Boss wanted me to pick him up from a mountain top airport that was reporting 1/4 to 1/2 mile vis and vv001 ceiling. He told me he was at the airport (lie) and it looked fine (lie) and that he'd wait for me to get there (said in a "you better be here soon" tone)

I told him I was going to stay right where I was (airport down in the valley) and he could wait for the weather to clear up there (wasn't going to for the rest of the day), or drive down and meet me.

Two hours later, he pulled up to the airport in the valley.
 
Here are some thoughts...

I've been flying in and out of Aspen my entire career. First in TP's and then jets. While I agree with much of what's been said here, I do not agree with the statements arguing the ludicrousness of operating into and out of ASE. It can be and is done safely just about everyday. Rarely, inexperienced crews (ok, some experienced ones as well) will attempt to land when they shouldn't and the valley devours them. It's sad. However, if initial and recurrent training is provided, proper procedures are implemented and adhered to, and (most importantly) good airmanship is exercised, Aspen operations are not high risk.

Here's an example of the above: my close childhood friend and colleague who operates in and out of ASE several times per month utilizing a Dassault Falcon 50, diverted to RIL yesterday due to the adverse weather conditions. This is almost an expectation for this diligent part 91 crew and owner. It happens all the time. As an operator/pilot I have always made it clear when a client schedules a trip in advance to ASE that there will be roughly a 50/50 chance of getting in, especially in Winter.

So, to sum it up, if we as Managers, pilots (most important) and operators did a better job of, well, doing our jobs then everyone would be safer. It always comes down to us as Pilot in COMMAND. I've been fired for refusing to compromise and holding fast to the convictions of safety, legalities and professionalism. It's not the end of the world and we'll always come out on top. Most importantly, we'll always come out alive.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
I've done it. Boss wanted me to pick him up from a mountain top airport that was reporting 1/4 to 1/2 mile vis and vv001 ceiling. He told me he was at the airport (lie) and it looked fine (lie) and that he'd wait for me to get there (said in a "you better be here soon" tone)

I told him I was going to stay right where I was (airport down in the valley) and he could wait for the weather to clear up there (wasn't going to for the rest of the day), or drive down and meet me.

Two hours later, he pulled up to the airport in the valley.
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That's great, but tomokc and dustoff do have a point. There is real world pressure in this job as a charter or corporate pilot to get the job done. Maybe we cave into that pressure, get away with something, scare ourselves, and learn from it. Or maybe we bend metal, or maybe people get killed. But you have to admit that pressure is there, and we've all faced it. There are a lot of things that irritate me about 121, but NEVER having that pressure is huge.
 
tomokc said:
I sense that the crew was operating under a different kind of pressure on this flight - not the typical noise coming from the back, "Either you'll get me into Aspen or your replacement will."

With the exception of the third person on board, they were coming in empty to PICK UP passengers and take them to Mexico. If other aircraft landed and they didn't, then their abilities would be questioned by the owner/client:

Them: "Why are you in Rifle?"
You: "It wasn't safe to land at Aspen. You'll have to drive here."
Them: "I watched a string of other bizjets land. Why are you the only one who diverted?"
You: "We tried but the conditions were beyond allowable limits."
Them: "Tell you what. Scratch the flight - I'm calling someone else, I'll never use you guys again, and I'll make sure that everybody knows that your company was the only one that couldn't get into Aspen today."
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I had this exact situation with a passenger. I picked them up in Houston. I politely told them that Aspen was outside of the limitations for the aircraft we were flying. The passenger keep coming up front and showing me flightaware on his iPad. Look this guy got in. "Well Sir, that KA350 means it is a turboprop." "Sir Skywest has different rules for landing at ASE than we do." "Sir we will do everything we can to get you into ASE, as long as it is safe and legal." "Sir, please let me show you the AFM, see the 10 knot tailwind limit?" "That is why we can't land."

He was so upset his wife started to plead with him "honey stop." "Honey please they are doing everything they can." So we land at RIL and the lead PAX is pissed. Transportation isn't available because our "dispatch" (they weren't licensed dispatchers) screwed the pooch. So we sit on the ramp. The PAX dogs are running around the ramp, their kid is crying and the wife and husband are screaming at me holding the iPad: "LOOK, LOOK! ONE OF YOUR COMPANIES AIRPLANES, THE SAME ONE YOU FLY, JUST LANDED AT ASPEN! AND YOU COULDN'T! I CANT BELIVE IT!" The wife turned into a real monster then and launched into a rant with some choice descriptions of my flying ability. Secretly I found it funny.

At that point I just faked being polite and the limo finally showed. I can't even imagine pressuring a young captain into ASE with my entire family on board. A young, hungry guy doing his best can get you killed if you push hard enough...

As far as company support or for decisions made: The CP called later asking for an explanation and I told him straight up what happened. Nothing came of it, but I'm sure something went into the lets screw over BEEF SUPREME file at MCC.

This discussion is fun. I'm still waiting on the emergency aircraft situation to be brought up so I can continue the ASE rant. You know the time went to ASE diverted three times and declared an emergency, twice.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
jonnyb said:
Here are some thoughts...

I've been flying in and out of Aspen my entire career. First in TP's and then jets. While I agree with much of what's been said here, I do not agree with the statements arguing the ludicrousness of operating into and out of ASE. It can be and is done safely just about everyday. Rarely, inexperienced crews (ok, some experienced ones as well) will attempt to land when they shouldn't and the valley devours them. It's sad. However, if initial and recurrent training is provided, proper procedures are implemented and adhered to, and (most importantly) good airmanship is exercised, Aspen operations are not high risk.

Here's an example of the above: my close childhood friend and colleague who operates in and out of ASE several times per month utilizing a Dassault Falcon 50, diverted to RIL yesterday due to the adverse weather conditions. This is almost an expectation for this diligent part 91 crew and owner. It happens all the time. As an operator/pilot I have always made it clear when a client schedules a trip in advance to ASE that there will be roughly a 50/50 chance of getting in, especially in Winter.

So, to sum it up, if we as Managers, pilots (most important) and operators did a better job of, well, doing our jobs then everyone would be safer. It always comes down to us as Pilot in COMMAND. I've been fired for refusing to compromise and holding fast to the convictions of safety, legalities and professionalism. It's not the end of the world and we'll always come out on top. Most importantly, we'll always come out alive.
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The issue isn't the regulars like you. It's the transient guys that show up, often without doing appropriate research. Heck, I've sat on the ramp and watched people botching the Lindz 8 many, many times. It isn't the regulars doing that.
 
dustoff17 said:
THIS is real world!
Telling a passenger/client to pound sand and keeping your job/career is rare or, dare I state, non-existent.

My guess is the passenger was the relief Captain for the return flight home.
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Relly it's not the norm. If it we're there would be a lot less biz jets and charter ops flying around than there are. A customer can SAY any thing they want. If a pilot lacks the ability to articulate why he made a decision that's on him/her. If a client throws a fit and you just say "welp we just didn't get in" of course they're gonna be pissed. I've found as long as you can explain the reasons why, it makes people happy. Admittedly I've not had to fly true 135 but did fly a for a five owner(and all their friends) partnership that comes with it it's own set of baggage.

The more pilots that say no to an individual, the more they are going to learn about what's safe and what isn't. You have to train them. Again, it's more of a pilot issue than a customer issue.
 
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