Can the major air carriers survive without the regionals

And actually, I would make the argument that the major airlines cannot survive with the vendor companies performing as they are right now.

The contracted-out flying is killing them.

13 departures on the board canceled yesterday in DTW, and NONE of them were mainline. The weather was nice in most places except NY and near ATL.

13 departures at say 50 per flight is 650 passengers milling around DTW trying to get mainline to clean up the contractor's mess, again.
 
Nick said:
And actually, I would make the argument that the major airlines cannot survive with the vendor companies performing as they are right now.

The contracted-out flying is killing them.

13 departures on the board canceled yesterday in DTW, and NONE of them were mainline. The weather was nice in most places except NY and near ATL.

13 departures at say 50 per flight is 650 passengers milling around DTW trying to get mainline to clean up the contractor's mess, again.
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This didn't happen to be a case of a limited number of slots being available for someplace like the New York area, where mainline canceled all the express flights and sent the mainline planes in the slots instead?

Maybe I spent too many days canceling in BFE because of this in Newark, but it certainly does happen.
 
The real answer to this question is just the opposite...

There's no way the regionals could survive without their respective majors. Given the fact that the majors in a lot of contracts pay for fuel, empty seats, gate support, cancellations, etc. it would appear that the regionals survive because they are shielded from normal market forces. It's as though the regionals are operating in the days of regulation except this time they are propped up by the major airlines rather than the federal government.
 
jtrain609 said:
This didn't happen to be a case of a limited number of slots being available for someplace like the New York area, where mainline canceled all the express flights and sent the mainline planes in the slots instead?

Maybe I spent too many days canceling in BFE because of this in Newark, but it certainly does happen.
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No, it wasn't that, this was just sheer lack of human beings to fly the airplanes on a beautiful day. The rebooking lines rivaled a winter storm by the end of the night.

It's funny, I can show up for airport ready reserve around 3pm and there's 2-3 canceled flights on the board, all from vendors and none from mainline. I'll usually listen to music and take a long walk to all four corners of the Mcnamara terminal for 1-2 hours and by the end of that, there's usually another 2-4 canceled vendor flights. Then I'll head to the crewroom and eat whatever I brought for dinner and surf the web or chat with whoever's down there for a bit. Then by 8pm or slightly later when I leave, it's often up to a 10-12 vendor flights canceled with zero mainline. A few days ago, I saw a DC-9 subbed onto a PIT turn because whatever contractor originally had it apparently couldn't do it.

As I read on another forum once, I firmly believe: "The legacies got drunk on RJs and the hangover is killing them."

I know they can do a better job themselves for the same cost.

Now, I know exactly what you mean with the EWR type cancellations where CAL would just pick and choose what needs to get in and cancel whatever had too long of an EDCT. The scenario I've described is the opposite, where the hub is in nice weather and a dozen inbound and a dozen outbound vendor flights are canceled.
 
SWA and JetBlue seem to do just fine without them.

AirTran tried it, and gave up. They felt they had a better product and paying someone else to do it was stupid.

Richman
 
Cav said:
The real answer to this question is just the opposite...

There's no way the regionals could survive without their respective majors. Given the fact that the majors in a lot of contracts pay for fuel, empty seats, gate support, cancellations, etc. it would appear that the regionals survive because they are shielded from normal market forces. It's as though the regionals are operating in the days of regulation except this time they are propped up by the major airlines rather than the federal government.
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This is actually a good way of thinking of it.

They don't care about loads. They don't care about marketing. They don't care about competition.

It's just completion factor or bust.

There is exactly one exception to your otherwise accurate analogy: on-board service and amenities.

That category is the polar opposite of regulated airlines..."Sure, Eastern and Braniff charge exactly $205 each way like us, but our steak's better, our flight attendants are friendlier, and our planes are cleaner! Fly Pan Am!"

Now, you get on a flight and, well, on my last deadhead which was on a CRJ-200, I was at the window seat of an exit row. The escape rope cover repeatedly fell off and I tried to put it back on each time with the helpful hand from behind my seat, literally, a hand that I saw no arm or body or face of, just the hand of the guy behind me tucking the escape rope back while I fumbled with the cover, and finally the hand and I gave up. If the ceiling was higher in that airplane, I would have maybe ripped the rope out of the box and took it back to the lav to hang myself. Ha...but, the ceiling's not high enough. :)
 
Nick said:
It's funny, I can show up for airport ready reserve around 3pm and there's 2-3 canceled flights on the board, all from vendors and none from mainline. I'll usually listen to music and take a long walk to all four corners of the Mcnamara terminal for 1-2 hours and by the end of that, there's usually another 2-4 canceled vendor flights. Then I'll head to the crewroom and eat whatever I brought for dinner and surf the web or chat with whoever's down there for a bit. Then by 8pm or slightly later when I leave, it's often up to a 10-12 vendor flights canceled with zero mainline. A few days ago, I saw a DC-9 subbed onto a PIT turn because whatever contractor originally had it apparently couldn't do it.
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I've seen EXACTLY the same thing.

Richman
 
Nick said:
As I read on another forum once, I firmly believe: "The legacies got drunk on RJs and the hangover is killing them."

I know they can do a better job themselves for the same cost.

Now, I know exactly what you mean with the EWR type cancellations where CAL would just pick and choose what needs to get in and cancel whatever had too long of an EDCT. The scenario I've described is the opposite, where the hub is in nice weather and a dozen inbound and a dozen outbound vendor flights are canceled.
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I think you're giving the major airlines too much credit. Once upon a time XJT (for instance) had a very descent contract with CAL that allowed for adequate staffing of the airline. The result was an awesome completion factor. Nowadays, XJT and every other regional knows that the major carrier only cares about $ and will deal with the resulting completion factor. This is what they want, this is what they're getting.
 
Baronman said:
I think you're giving the major airlines too much credit. Once upon a time XJT (for instance) had a very descent contract with CAL that allowed for adequate staffing of the airline. The result was an awesome completion factor. Nowadays, XJT and every other regional knows that the major carrier only cares about $ and will deal with the resulting completion factor. This is what they want, this is what they're getting.
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I haven't had a day rolled since I came back, and have 17 days off this month and enhanced red flag isn't up.

I'd say we're staffed just fine :)
 
Baronman said:
I think you're giving the major airlines too much credit. Once upon a time XJT (for instance) had a very descent contract with CAL that allowed for adequate staffing of the airline. The result was an awesome completion factor. Nowadays, XJT and every other regional knows that the major carrier only cares about $ and will deal with the resulting completion factor. This is what they want, this is what they're getting.
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Well here is a question then, do you think if Southwest decided to outsource some flying, would that vendor company do as good a job? Let's say they outsourced it at a similar price in line with XJT's current contract with CAL, or Skywest's current contract with UAL, or Mesa's contract with USAir.

Would the savings really save anything, is what I wonder. I really don't think so. I think the simplification achieved by having everything in-house is superior. The several hundred people I saw in the rebooking line a few days ago on a nice weather day is kind of what I am thinking of. I don't know what that cost the mainline company but I don't think they would have had those canceled flights if they had been operating them on their own. When is the last time Southwest or Delta or American went 5-6 days in a given week canceling a few dozen flights systemwide due to lack of crews?
 
Who makes a better ham and cheese sandwich? You or Subway? :)

Who is going to make better sweet sweet love to your woman? You or some random dude off Craig's List? :)

That should answer everything.
 
Richman said:
Haters gonna' hate....
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Needs more picture to be accurate and complete:
god-haters-gonna-hate-eagle.jpg
 
MikeD said:
For the woman, I guess it depends on the dude we're talkin about..........:D
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And it depends on whether or not you plan on broadcasting it live and trying to make some money and that's after borrowing your cousin's camera! Now you've got your cousin demanding some of that cut.

It would be really awesome if this were just an answer to a simple question that we didn't know back in the 80's, but it's not that simple. The people with money in the pot really don't care about Air Excellence pilots flying Air Excellence passengers unless that builds that summer home or adds to their kids' college account.
 
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