KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
According to what?
Can I rent my friend's plane?
- Thread starter stesta5074
- Start date
According to what?
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
No. Not at all. Flying some else's plane doesn't make it for hire, whether you pay them or not.
I think you are confusing this with the pro-rata passenger rules.
TUCKnTRUCK
That guy
my bad.. I had just browsed through real quick, and thought i saw something about instruction in the plane.. wasn't the original poster though... I repent.
texas_pilot
Well-Known Member
Renter's insurance.
Nuff said??
Nuff said??
Joe Gremlin
Well-Known Member
d'ya ever price renters insurance? It's not going to be cheap if you need full coverage for the full value of the plane. Somewhere between $700 and $1500 per year depending on the value of the plane and the amount of liability you need.
stesta5074
Well-Known Member
AOPA would offer me renters insurance for around 500 a year for what I need....
Inverted25
Well-Known Member
Yes but remember AOPAs renter insurance is very limited it what it covers. I have it and it works for using a flight schools plane well but when flying your buddies airplane remember it dont cover everything. And unless your on his personal policy you wont be covered by his. The difference at a flight school is that their planes are on commercial policies which cover you as well as your renter insurance. And also remember that if you cause any maintenance problems you will be expected to pay out your pocket for them and it can be very expensive. Not trying to disappoint you but if something goes wrong that isn't covered by renters insurance such as a problem with the engine you will have to pay out your pocket!
Joe Gremlin
Well-Known Member
If both you and the owner are comfortable with the coverage and you're comfortable with the premium then go for it. I wouldn't be comfortable with anything less than being named insured on the primary policy and a waiver of subrogation but that's me.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
But not by much. Its less than 10% for what we have. And for a business the savings isn't worth the interchangeability.
Nihon_Ni
Well-Known Member
This could be a good arrangement for both of you, just make sure you talk about everything up front and draft a rental agreement. (As my lawyer once told me, an oral agreement isn't worth the paper it isn't written on in the event you have to enforce that agreement.) If you lock up the wheels on landing and blow a tire, then you pay for it -- that's fairly simple. But there are some more complex situations you could face. For example, what happens if you're flying it and a valve breaks? Now you're probably looking at a top overhaul for something that is likely due to accumulated wear and tear and not directly attributable to the time you were flying. What will you and the owner do then? If it was a FBO' plane, you'd just hand them the keys and write up a gripe. If you had it in partnership, you'd both be in for a fair share of the maintenance. Would your buddy expect you to return the airplane in the same condition as when the flight started? Or what it you lock up a tire for a few seconds but don't blow it and just flat spot the tire? You've taken lots of useful life off the tire, but it still has some remaining. What then? Would he expect you to buy a new one? Would you expect him to leave the old one on because it's still good?
This is why mini said its a good way to ruin a friendship. If you both have the same expectations (read: written, signed, notarized rental agreement) then you'll save your friendship,
If you're thinking about flying this plane a bunch, you may consider asking him to make you a partner, even if just a limited partnership. (I think the legal term is subordinated position, meaning you have no say in decisions about the airplane, since you don't own the majority of it. If he wants to paint it pink and move it to Florida, you're along for the ride unless your agreement stipulates how the owner must make it available to you.)
For example, you could be a limited partner for 12 months for $2400, payable in monthly installments but due every month even if you don't fly. (I'm just picking numbers out of the air for the sake of example). Then you can fly the airplane for up to 100 hrs for the price of gas and oil you use, plus 50% of annual insurance. At the end of the year you walk away free and clear. You'll lower the overall insurance you both pay (assuming you have similar or better flight time and ratings to the current owner) as you can normally have about three people listed on a policy for no additional charge. You'll save him money by contributing to the indirect expenses through your limited buy-in, because the more a plane flies the cheaper it is per hour. You both except some risk and both stand to gain. Somewhere there's probably a set of numbers/conditions that will make you both happy.
FWIW, when I owned a Grumman Yankee I had a lot of friends offer to rent the plane from me. I was never interested in having them ham-fist my plane and I didn't need help sharing the costs, so I always told them it would drive my insurance up to the point where it wouldn't be cheaper than renting from the FBO since they didn't have any time in type. That was true, but even if it wasn't, I just wasn't interested in sharing my mistress with my friends. No one takes care of your things like you do. That's just a fact I didn't need to prove again. You may have more luck with your buddy if you approach it from buying into the plane (thus you will treat it like a plane you own, instead of one you rent). Find out why he's interested in renting it to you (he likes you and is one helluva guy an wants to help you out, he can't afford it on his own, he doesn't fly it as much as he used to, etc), and you can better craft an agreement that will suit you both.
This is why mini said its a good way to ruin a friendship. If you both have the same expectations (read: written, signed, notarized rental agreement) then you'll save your friendship,
If you're thinking about flying this plane a bunch, you may consider asking him to make you a partner, even if just a limited partnership. (I think the legal term is subordinated position, meaning you have no say in decisions about the airplane, since you don't own the majority of it. If he wants to paint it pink and move it to Florida, you're along for the ride unless your agreement stipulates how the owner must make it available to you.)
For example, you could be a limited partner for 12 months for $2400, payable in monthly installments but due every month even if you don't fly. (I'm just picking numbers out of the air for the sake of example). Then you can fly the airplane for up to 100 hrs for the price of gas and oil you use, plus 50% of annual insurance. At the end of the year you walk away free and clear. You'll lower the overall insurance you both pay (assuming you have similar or better flight time and ratings to the current owner) as you can normally have about three people listed on a policy for no additional charge. You'll save him money by contributing to the indirect expenses through your limited buy-in, because the more a plane flies the cheaper it is per hour. You both except some risk and both stand to gain. Somewhere there's probably a set of numbers/conditions that will make you both happy.
FWIW, when I owned a Grumman Yankee I had a lot of friends offer to rent the plane from me. I was never interested in having them ham-fist my plane and I didn't need help sharing the costs, so I always told them it would drive my insurance up to the point where it wouldn't be cheaper than renting from the FBO since they didn't have any time in type. That was true, but even if it wasn't, I just wasn't interested in sharing my mistress with my friends. No one takes care of your things like you do. That's just a fact I didn't need to prove again. You may have more luck with your buddy if you approach it from buying into the plane (thus you will treat it like a plane you own, instead of one you rent). Find out why he's interested in renting it to you (he likes you and is one helluva guy an wants to help you out, he can't afford it on his own, he doesn't fly it as much as he used to, etc), and you can better craft an agreement that will suit you both.
Killtron2000
Well-Known Member
I would think not having to do 100 hour inspections would save a lot.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Chances are those rental-only band-new Skylanes require some time-in-type training and checkouts - that's instruction.
It's probably not wanting students banging them up and there may well be a break on insurance if they are used in a more limited fashion.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
In our case we fly tours in all three during the summer, so they have to get 100 hour inspections anyway. But in a pure flight school scenario I could see how that would be a big difference if the demand for rent-only airplanes was there.
Inverted25
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Killtron2000
I would think not having to do 100 hour inspections would save a lot.
Not really. Especially at a flight school like the one I fly at that owns it own maintence department. The mechanics get paid salary so doing 100 hour inspections dont cost the school any more money than if they dont do them.