Can an A321 do this?

statusseeker1

statusseeker1

Well-Known Member
Hey Bus drivers— had a bad night last night. Tried to go PHX to BOS on a redeye but got diverted to CLT because “the A321NEO is unable to both depart from PHX under current temperature and weather conditions and also fly around weather to get as far as BOS” according to crew. PHX was typical 42C at 10 pm. It was a an absolute cluster**** getting us to BOS after that of course. My question: shouldn’t an A321 be able to depart a high DA field and also carry enough gas for a 5 hour block flight+30 mins maneuvering gas? Also, how was this flight even dispatched? Directly through the weather? For context, DAL launched a 739 a couple hours after us and went north around the weather over the central US.
 

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Yeah it should have been able to do that. As long as BOS WX was ok.

FWIW it’s also very company perf software dependent. At VX the NEOs had great perf with no issues. When AS took over and tried to put the square peg into a round hole, they somehow were weight restricted and needed to deplane back to front.
 
Just for trivia, the flat-rated temperature for both the LEAP-1A and CFM56-7B on the A321N and 737-900ER is 30°C.

It looks like this flight started in June and this is that was the only time it has cancelled or diverted.

JetBlue does it with an A320CEO and has cancelled twice this month (none in the months before then). It looks like the Delta flight has cancelled tonight and one other time since June.
 
The question is not whether an A321 can do it. The question is if that specific tail number on that specific night with those specific conditions (weather, MEL’s) can do it? Obviously not, since airlines don’t divert for the fun of it. Without knowing what the specific reasons for why it needed to divert, it would be unreasonable to speculate why.
 
statusseeker1 said:
Hey Bus drivers— had a bad night last night. Tried to go PHX to BOS on a redeye but got diverted to CLT because “the A321NEO is unable to both depart from PHX under current temperature and weather conditions and also fly around weather to get as far as BOS” according to crew. PHX was typical 42C at 10 pm. It was a an absolute cluster**** getting us to BOS after that of course. My question: shouldn’t an A321 be able to depart a high DA field and also carry enough gas for a 5 hour block flight+30 mins maneuvering gas? Also, how was this flight even dispatched? Directly through the weather? For context, DAL launched a 739 a couple hours after us and went north around the weather over the central US.
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I nearly got left behind on a Delta A321 regular from DTW-LAX.

"Sorry, weight restricted."


(inner thought, um, what?!?)

Something about how in this case we can take only Delta nonrevs, but not you as a OAL pilot jumpseater. (louder inner thought, WHAT?!)

Luckily they called their loading department (or whatever it's called) about 15 minutes before departure and I got the jumpseat approved.
 
statusseeker1 said:
Hey Bus drivers— had a bad night last night. Tried to go PHX to BOS on a redeye but got diverted to CLT because “the A321NEO is unable to both depart from PHX under current temperature and weather conditions and also fly around weather to get as far as BOS” according to crew. PHX was typical 42C at 10 pm. It was a an absolute cluster**** getting us to BOS after that of course. My question: shouldn’t an A321 be able to depart a high DA field and also carry enough gas for a 5 hour block flight+30 mins maneuvering gas? Also, how was this flight even dispatched? Directly through the weather? For context, DAL launched a 739 a couple hours after us and went north around the weather over the central US.
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apparently not
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I nearly got left behind on a Delta A321 regular from DTW-LAX.

"Sorry, weight restricted."


(inner thought, um, what?!?)

Something about how in this case we can take only Delta nonrevs, but not you as a OAL pilot jumpseater. (louder inner thought, WHAT?!)

Luckily they called their loading department (or whatever it's called) about 15 minutes before departure and I got the jumpseat approved.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the world of OAL pilots who commute on Delta. “Payload Optimized” will be a phrase that you will become acutely aware of while trying to ride on their A320s. I don’t know if they are aware of the massive headaches that are brewing among many OALs about how often jumpseaters are being denied boarding because of it.
 
”Weight optimization” is a mysterious sea creature, vastly misunderstood by most.

HISTORICALLY, on certain routes/times of the year they’ll flag the flight for ‘payload optimization’ whether or not it’s necessary. They’ll prioritize high-value freight over non-revs sometimes. It’s basically on the template for load planning and a quick ”are ya sure about that?” call to the local load planner or even dispatch can untangle a lot of… tangles…

Online jumpseaters are excluded and the jumpseat is ‘protected’ but not protected for OAL jumpseaters.

Just to cut to the chase, whenver I saw that domestically, I’d send a note to flight control and make sure if that entire dance of stupidness is even necessary.

If you’re denied a jumpseat because of ‘load optimization’ and the captain is indifferent about your status, always follow up with your jumpseat coordinator.
 
derg said:
”Weight optimization” is a mysterious sea creature, vastly misunderstood by most.

HISTORICALLY, on certain routes/times of the year they’ll flag the flight for ‘payload optimization’ whether or not it’s necessary. They’ll prioritize high-value freight over non-revs sometimes. It’s basically on the template for load planning and a quick ”are ya sure about that?” call to the local load planner or even dispatch can untangle a lot of… tangles…

Online jumpseaters are excluded and the jumpseat is ‘protected’ but not protected for OAL jumpseaters.

Just to cut to the chase, whenver I saw that domestically, I’d send a note to flight control and make sure if that entire dance of stupidness is even necessary.

If you’re denied a jumpseat because of ‘load optimization’ and the captain is indifferent about your status, always follow up with your jumpseat coordinator.
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Emphasis on the payload bit.
 
I took a look at the flight in question and previous flights that day. The simple answer is that not every pilot and dispatcher is willing to take a minimum legal fuel flight plan into a forecast area of convection and turbulence. One or both might want either extra fuel or a route around the weather. At temperatures close to 45C and a full flight, you are right at the max performance takeoff weight or overweight with minimum legal fuel.

Most pilots and dispatchers want to take the people and just take the risk to their license that everything goes to plan. That can mean fuel stopping enroute unplanned if deviations or re-routes are needed. Others land with really lower arrival fuels trying to make it work. Some dont want to risk getting into bad turbulence and having to explain that they took or planned this route because they didnt want to offload payload. You can have a safe, comfortable flight plan or a minimum legal fuel flight plan. Cant do both on a hot PHX night when theres weather on the best wind route.

Load planners dont have the legal or union protections that dispatchers and pilots have. The company policy at most airlines is to have a buffer planned between the planned payload and the MTOW. That is to avoid last minute offloads when the cargo or passenger weights come in higher than planned. If they are confident in a payload, they can squeeze more on and get closer to the limiting MTOW. However, they are responsible if flights take delays or gate returns for last minute payload offloads. Some are going to be more aggressive in imposing a weight restriction than others.
 
statusseeker1 said:
Hey Bus drivers— had a bad night last night. Tried to go PHX to BOS on a redeye but got diverted to CLT because “the A321NEO is unable to both depart from PHX under current temperature and weather conditions and also fly around weather to get as far as BOS” according to crew. PHX was typical 42C at 10 pm. It was a an absolute cluster**** getting us to BOS after that of course. My question: shouldn’t an A321 be able to depart a high DA field and also carry enough gas for a 5 hour block flight+30 mins maneuvering gas? Also, how was this flight even dispatched? Directly through the weather? For context, DAL launched a 739 a couple hours after us and went north around the weather over the central US.
Click to expand...
First question is, if the neo is/was "unable to ... dapart from PHX", how did it depart PHX so that it could then get diverted CLT?

Next question, why could it land in CLT but not BOS? This should definitively not have been a fuel issue, unless...

Well, third question, has anyone done a longitudinal analysis of the average competency of ops personnel in aviation over the last 50 years and 50 months?
 
form810 said:
First question is, if the neo is/was "unable to ... dapart from PHX", how did it depart PHX so that it could then get diverted CLT?

Next question, why could it land in CLT but not BOS? This should definitively not have been a fuel issue, unless...

Well, third question, has anyone done a longitudinal analysis of the average competency of ops personnel in aviation over the last 50 years and 50 months?
Click to expand...

It was unable to depart with the high temperature and high weight (fuel). They either took off planning to land in CLT and were legal, or they took off planning to go to BOS with no contingency fuel, and upon deviating had to plan a divert (to CLT).

It could land in CLT because it takes less fuel to get there.
 
derg said:
”Weight optimization” is a mysterious sea creature, vastly misunderstood by most.

HISTORICALLY, on certain routes/times of the year they’ll flag the flight for ‘payload optimization’ whether or not it’s necessary. They’ll prioritize high-value freight over non-revs sometimes. It’s basically on the template for load planning and a quick ”are ya sure about that?” call to the local load planner or even dispatch can untangle a lot of… tangles…

Online jumpseaters are excluded and the jumpseat is ‘protected’ but not protected for OAL jumpseaters.

Just to cut to the chase, whenver I saw that domestically, I’d send a note to flight control and make sure if that entire dance of stupidness is even necessary.

If you’re denied a jumpseat because of ‘load optimization’ and the captain is indifferent about your status, always follow up with your jumpseat coordinator.
Click to expand...

Well, I got on. But I did tell the CA inflight about nearly getting left behind for payload reasons, and he was genuinely clueless about it, not aware that they had an issue (apparently).

LAX no alternate, good weather. I have a hard time believing an A321 can’t go with good ex, no alternate, and 1 JSer on a 4:06 hr flight.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Well, I got on. But I did tell the CA inflight about nearly getting left behind for payload reasons, and he was genuinely clueless about it, not aware that they had an issue (apparently).

LAX no alternate, good weather. I have a hard time believing an A321 can’t go with good ex, no alternate, and 1 JSer on a 4:06 hr flight.
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It can and it does. Did you even read what I wrote?

I mean if you’re not, I won’t bother explaining next time.
 
@Cherokee_Cruiser

I too commute on delta a lot. The general feeling I get from the capts there is, it is solely up to the gate agent and the company. I have had very very few fight to get me or other oal's on the plane.

got left in dtw once because I couldn't pre list for the JS. Tried explaining to the agent that OAL have no way to list. It wasn't her problem. The pic could have cared less.

Payload sodomized you will see a lot on the short stage lengths in my experience, especially if there is weather.
 
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