CA smells like alcohol.....

[flyguy25]

So you’re a brand new FO in your first 121 gig. Your fresh out of IOE and its your first real trip. You should up to the aircraft and meet the CA and he smells like alcohol. What do you do? Refuse to fly with him? Call the chief pilot and report him?

I would like to see what some of our experienced pilots think. Has anyone had this situation and what did you do?

 

[Bumblebee]

since this is the "You're the Captain" thread I orerder antother dreinkydrink....and teeelelll the FOOO to wake me over TO ledo

 

[dasleben]

Tell him to call out sick. If he refuses, escalate as necessary. Do NOT operate the aircraft until he's been replaced or proves that he's not intoxicated (perhaps someone spilled a beer on him at the gate!).

 

[Bumblebee]

First speak with him (You actually would probably meet him at the van, normally), if you feel after having a conversation with him, that he is intoxicated and you are at the hotel, then tell him to go back to his room and call in sick. If at the airplane and you are certain he has been drinking, then you must tell him that you will not fly and that if attempts it you will report it. Tough call, but that's the game we're in.

 

[jhugz]

Ask him for a hit.

 

[juxtapilot]

First speak with him (You actually would probably meet him at the van, normally), if you feel after having a conversation with him, that he is intoxicated and you are at the hotel, then tell him to go back to his room and call in sick. If at the airplane and you are certain he has been drinking, then you must tell him that you will not fly and that if attempts it you will report it. Tough call, but that's the game we're in.

Is this what HR would want to hear as well?

 

[jynxyjoe]

Kiss him on the lips, maybe there's still some alcohol left.

 

[O&M]

What's interesting to me is that everyone's first response here is to protect the Captain. In the hotel or airport lobby, that might be mine as well. But in this scenario, the Captain has already gone on duty; the damage is already done. He's cleared security, so someone probably took notice there. Someone probably noticed down in operations when they let him out to the plane. For all you know, airport security could already be on the way. The only thing you can do now is protect yourself, and protect the passengers and crew (if he is already on the flight deck, you can't leave him there unsupervised, who knows what he'd do). I'd call the company and explain the situation. I'm not going to jeopardize my certificates and career to protect a guy who is showing incredibly bad judgement.

The only way he could have had a drink spilled on him is if he was in a bar in uniform. Again, not very good judgement.

 

[Hacker15e]

This is a classic interview question...

 

[jynxyjoe]

What's interesting to me is that everyone's first response here is to protect the Captain. In the hotel or airport lobby, that might be mine as well. But in this scenario, the Captain has already gone on duty; the damage is already done. He's cleared security, so someone probably took notice there. Someone probably noticed down in operations when they let him out to the plane. For all you know, airport security could already be on the way. The only thing you can do now is protect yourself, and protect the passengers and crew (if he is already on the flight deck, you can't leave him there unsupervised, who knows what he'd do). I'd call the company and explain the situation. I'm not going to jeopardize my certificates and career to protect a guy who is showing incredibly bad judgement.

The only way he could have had a drink spilled on him is if he was in a bar in uniform. Again, not very good judgement.

Hehe. You should probably rip his epaulets off in front of the passengers too, that'll show him. Plus the passengers might grow some respect for you, and you won't feel so worthless inside, and dead (when I say you I don't mean you, I mean all of us FO's on IOE).

I rarely agree with O&M, but in this case he's absolutely right, we don't tolerate mistakes big or small in aviation or in the corporate world. Never mind the fact he may have a legitimate substance problem which there is help for. Never mind that he could pass the program and come back and owe his new life to you, besides he'll probably just pay you back with a free beer at the bar. DOH!!! See what I mean, my logic is infallible, as are pilots. Since I'm a pilot I'm infallible. See what I mean! My logic is ... *long long rant saying the same things over again*

When the cops come, you should feel free to execute the guy in public, that'll be a lesson to everyone else that makes mistakes.

 

[dasleben]

What's interesting to me is that everyone's first response here is to protect the Captain. In the hotel or airport lobby, that might be mine as well. But in this scenario, the Captain has already gone on duty; the damage is already done. He's cleared security, so someone probably took notice there. Someone probably noticed down in operations when they let him out to the plane. For all you know, airport security could already be on the way. The only thing you can do now is protect yourself, and protect the passengers and crew (if he is already on the flight deck, you can't leave him there unsupervised, who knows what he'd do). I'd call the company and explain the situation. I'm not going to jeopardize my certificates and career to protect a guy who is showing incredibly bad judgement.

The only way he could have had a drink spilled on him is if he was in a bar in uniform. Again, not very good judgement.

So, you're going to take it upon yourself to end his career for him? No thoughts of mitigating circumstances or an actual drinking problem? Just shoot first and ask questions later, right?

You want to give him the opportunity to call out sick, call HIMS, and get into a program if necessary. Calling the company and having him terminated helps no one. You're fine as long as you don't operate the aircraft or allow him to (if he doesn't respond to removing himself, only then should you escalate to the company). Remember also that generally there's a pilot asking you this question on an interview, most likely a captain him or herself. These aren't HR lackeys. They want to know that you won't run off and jeopardize their careers before you know the facts.

 

[jtrain609]

What's interesting to me is that everyone's first response here is to protect the Captain. In the hotel or airport lobby, that might be mine as well. But in this scenario, the Captain has already gone on duty; the damage is already done. He's cleared security, so someone probably took notice there. Someone probably noticed down in operations when they let him out to the plane. For all you know, airport security could already be on the way. The only thing you can do now is protect yourself, and protect the passengers and crew (if he is already on the flight deck, you can't leave him there unsupervised, who knows what he'd do). I'd call the company and explain the situation. I'm not going to jeopardize my certificates and career to protect a guy who is showing incredibly bad judgement.

The only way he could have had a drink spilled on him is if he was in a bar in uniform. Again, not very good judgement.

Your continued interest in promoting the company over your coworkers will truly be the end of your professional career, if you are in fact pursuing a professional flying career. This transcends part 121 flying, and applies to ANY job.

If this happens, and you find the guy in the cockpit, you tell him that he's sick, and that he should call in sick. You don't put your flight kit in the cockpit, you don't run a checklist, you explain to him that he's calling in sick and that the company will find somebody else to fly his trip.

If he won't, then you explain to him that you're going to call the chiefs office. If he still won't, then you call the chiefs office.

It sucks, and it'd be great if you could call pro stands or something like that here, but in this kind of a situation, where the guy is already in the cockpit you need action and quickly, or it's going to be your job on the line next.

If you find him in the hotel van like this, don't get in the van. Find him in security? Don't go through security. You want to break the chain at the location that you find this problem.

 

[O&M]

Always interesting to get a glimpse into the mindset of people. The problem is not that the Captain showed up under the influence of alcohol, the problem is that I said something. Ok then.

All I would do is call into the company and report that I am not going to fly with this Captain. If asked, I would give my reasons. It then falls to the company to decide what to do. If it truly is an honest mistake, then no harm done (although I suspect the Captain will never invite to go fishing with him). If the Captain is under the influence, then he has earned whatever action is taken. As for mitigating circumstances, that is for the Captain, the company, and the FAA to sort out.

The problem is that, in the scenario described, the Captain has already had contact with any number of people who are capable of making a similar judgement (security, airport personnel, ops agents, etc). Any one of those people could have made a call to airport police or the company. Further, he has already dutied on, thus reporting himself as fit for duty. So he's already "on the record" (as it were).

I suppose I could still advise him to call in sick, and probably would. And as I have already said, had this situation occured in the hotel lobby, the airport van, or anyplace where it is just he and I involved, I would do exactly that. But now he's on duty, and at the airplane. He's had contact with any number of other people, and I have to assume the airport police are running down the jetway right now. He's jeopardized himself, me, the rest of the crew, the ground agents, and of course, the passengers. It's a bit too late to walk that back. The proper thing for me to do is to protect myself by calling it in, and protect everyone else by making sure that he does not do anything more stupid like trying to operate the airplane in any fashion. I don't even want him throwing a switch. In case you haven't heard, alcohol impairs judgement (pass it on).

If that makes me a "company man," I'm ok with that, because it is the company that signs my paycheck. It's the Captain who is jeopardizing it.

 

[O&M]

One more thing: I always read on here about professionalism, being professional, and elevating the profession. But when it comes down to it, everyone seems to be more concerned about "protecting one of ours." Sometimes you can sometimes do both. But when you can't, which do you think adds more stature to the profession? exposing a mistake and trying to correct it? or sweeping it under the rug?

It's a tough break for that Captain, but it would go a long way to elevating the professional image of the airline pilot.

 

[dasleben]

If that makes me a "company man," I'm ok with that, because it is the company that signs my paycheck. It's the Captain who is jeopardizing it.

I'm not sure that you would get that far, to be honest. You probably would not be hired if that was your response when asked the question by a pilot interviewing you. It's harsh, but they're looking for someone they can spend 4+ days with without any trouble, because yes, we do look after our own in this business. We're a mostly unionized industry. We look after our fellow pilots before we go reporting back to management. Only after you've exhausted other avenues do you risk his career by getting management involved. You don't know that he's impaired because he just smells of alcohol, do you?

Actually, I had this happen once. I was about to fly with an FO, and he smelled of alcohol. I pulled him aside and chatted with him about it, and he told me he had not been drinking. As it turns out, it was the jacket he was wearing. He'd let his girlfriend wear it the night before, and she had been drinking. After he took it off he was just fine. What if I'd have called management? I would have put a perfectly sober pilot's career at risk unnecessarily.

 

[dasleben]

One more thing: I always read on here about professionalism, being professional, and elevating the profession. But when it comes down to it, everyone seems to be more concerned about "protecting one of ours." Sometimes you can sometimes do both. But when you can't, which do you think adds more stature to the profession? exposing a mistake and trying to correct it? or sweeping it under the rug?

It's a tough break for that Captain, but it would go a long way to elevating the professional image of the airline pilot.

I wanted to address this as well.

This would not be swept under the rug after a sick call. This would give the captain an opportunity to seek union-sponsored treatment for his alcoholism, allowing him to come back to work clean and sober when he's able. Having a captain led off the airplane in handcuffs does nothing to elevate the professional image of the airline pilot. In fact, it hurts our image much much more.

 

[Bumblebee]

You want to give him the opportunity to call out sick, call HIMS, and get into a program if necessary.

Which, in fact in many cases is exactly what management wants. If he self discloses (not at the airport, like O&M says) then there is a chance to regain an asset. Once past security, and checking in it is another thing, so gray area is again in the middle.

 

[dasleben]

No need to be mean with one another here.

I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just being honest, even if it may sound harsh. Hopefully it'll give him something to think about before getting into this business professionally. Considering my anecdote above about the FO I was flying with, I'd be very nervous flying with someone who had a hair trigger to call management. In fact, that story occurred at the gate.

 

[Bumblebee]

I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just being honest, even if it may sound harsh. Hopefully it'll give him something to think about before getting into this business professionally. Considering my anecdote above about the FO I was flying with, I'd be very nervous flying with someone who had a hair trigger to call management. In fact, that story occurred at the gate.

I understand, and was not addressing you although I did quote you...

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I'm not sure that you would get that far, to be honest. You probably would not be hired if that was your response when asked the question by a pilot interviewing you. It's harsh, but they're looking for someone they can spend 4+ days with without any trouble, because yes, we do look after our own in this business. We're a mostly unionized industry. We look after our fellow pilots before we go reporting back to management. Only after you've exhausted other avenues do you risk his career by getting management involved. You don't know that he's impaired because he just smells of alcohol, do you?

Amplification: We look after our fellow pilots because everyone else is looking into our performance, looking for deficiencies. And because someday, it could happen to you. Karma, you know.

I'm going to give my fellow pilots as much slack as is practical in saving their face--our face--and their careers. The slack ends when there's a willfully unsafe action—like operating the airplane while intoxicated. But if he hasn't operated the aircraft yet I'm going to do the maximum possible to see that the Captain gets the help he (or she) needs and help them avoid blowing their career. If you show up drunk you need help and I intend to make sure you get it.

I wouldn't let him through the door of the airplane if at all possible. Once he crosses that threshold, he's demonstrated intent to operate the airplane while intoxicated, and that's frowned upon. Once he's on the airplane, both of us are in deep trouble.