C207 crash Juneau

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The feds could just revoke the VFR privileges. Problem solved.
*shrug* I don't think that's necessary. 99% of the time VFR is perfectly safe (as long as you're not running a river way lower than you need to be on a beautiful day). The recent accidents that we have probably causes for were operating so far past the margins of anything resembling prudent (300' OVC at night in the case of the Hageland st. Mary's crash) that you should just leave them out of any discussion on how to operate safely under VFR. Then again, after 50 some years of technology and relearning the same damn lessons about how not to crash maybe that is what would need to happen to change anything.
 
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This is what you might see on a typical EFIS screen. Note the green skyway boxes (waypoints appear as magenta quidditch hoops) and ability to set altitude at any given waypoint. Not seen is the ability to set any climb or descent angle you want. Also full TAWS is integrated into the system. It's like playing a video game.

Yeah! And the bonus round looks like this:

image.jpg


I like it less when the video game can kill me.

-Fox
 
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Yeah! And the bonus round looks like this:
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or this:
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Or this...
In 5 years of flying the Chelton the only times I've seen that were one day when no one had reception due to some sort of area wide disturbance (obvious before takeoff) and one airplane that would drop off for a few seconds while transmitting on one specific frequency. Unless both Promech and 62 had that going on (and they'll be able to figure it out from the screen memory) that makes 3 airplanes that I know of that drove into hills with perfectly functional GPS systems in the last 3 years in southeast.

Oh, and reference the middle picture...let the damn thing spin up before blasting off and don't load ferrous metal back in the tail.
 
In 5 years of flying the Chelton the only times I've seen that were one day when no one had reception due to some sort of area wide disturbance (obvious before takeoff) and one airplane that would drop off for a few seconds while transmitting on one specific frequency.

In a year and a half of flying behind them, I have dozens upon dozens of pictures like that.

The Cheltons are great, splendid, fantabulous boxes. I LOVE them. But I'm not comfortable getting comfortable with them without a backup. SPOF and a half.

-Fox
 
In a year and a half of flying behind them, I have dozens upon dozens of pictures like that.

The Cheltons are great, splendid, fantabulous boxes. I LOVE them. But I'm not comfortable getting comfortable with them without a backup. SPOF and a half.

-Fox
Why do you accept airplanes that are un air worthy? Every one of those issues you have shown is shoddy or no maintenance effort being put in to maintain those sytems. Why are you not writing up these machines? To have such a critical piece of safety equipment being necleded should be a big warning flag on how serious Seaport takes safety. You may not have the talent in house but there is a avionics guy in Juneau that could have it all straightened out but it seems that your company has a problem paying it's bills and he won't do any seaport work except cash up front now.
 

The Chelton is certified to the equivalent of RNP .3 for the low route procedures, but the unit normally has a integrity level of better than RNP .1.

As for flying in Southeast, yes there are more inherent risks than most other 135 flying. Flying piston singles over the cold water of glacier carved fjords leaves little in the way of options even on a good day. Now add in the weather as the others have said and things get interesting. It is defiantly not the post card picture of Alaska aviation most new guys have when they show up. Over the years I have seen more than my share of pilots who pack up and leave in the middle of the night to having a full on nervous breakdown and having to be taken to the hospital.

To survive this area it requires a high level of decision making and hard IFR skills that most newbs do not hone CFI-ing in the desert.
 
Why do you accept airplanes that are un air worthy?

Well, to be honest, I never really like it when an airplane is airworthy. I mean, where would be the fun in that? Really, I think only pansies fly airplanes that are in good working order. Real Men® fly broken, cantankerous contraptions that are bound to fall apart. I'm not satisfied unless I run the most possible risk, especially when I have two generations of an entire family in back. It makes me wet to live on the bleeding edge.

Rar.

Or perhaps, maybe, just maybe, the issues in question have been written up, as appropriate. And deferred as per the MEL.

Perhaps a write up doesn't do any good when you're in IMC and it fails anyway, and perhaps that's my point.

Perhaps pointing fingers at me and asking why I fly un-airworthy airplanes is something that will actually make me want to kick your ass, rather than have a polite conversation about the merits of appropriate backup systems and whether having IFR equipment requirements even for VFR in southeast Alaska might not be a better answer.

I do not trust the Cheltons as a sole-source instrument for navigation, and I don't trust a phone/iPad/handheld as an appropriate backup in a safety-critical application. To get me on board with the "Launch into whatever and fly the boxes" argument, you're going to have to start talking about having IFR-equipped airplanes with some form of EFFECTIVE backup system.

That's my point, and we can either go from there, or you can keep jabbing fingers at me and my fellow pilots. I promise one will be more conducive to conversation than the other.

-Fox
 
Perhaps pointing fingers at me and asking why I fly un-airworthy airplanes is something that will actually make me want to kick your ass, rather than have a polite conversation about the merits of appropriate backup systems and whether having IFR equipment requirements even for VFR in southeast Alaska might not be a better answer.

What the hell is this? Elementary school? Fox, put on your big boy pants (the ones with the cut out for your tail are fine) and play the part of an adult here and have that polite conversation instead of acting like a 3rd grader and threatening bodily harm.
 
What the hell is this? Elementary school? Fox, put on your big boy pants (the ones with the cut out for your tail are fine) and play the part of an adult here and have that polite conversation instead of acting like a 3rd grader and threatening bodily harm.
Do you really think that that's where I'm going with that?

-Fox
 
What the hell is this? Elementary school? Fox, put on your big boy pants (the ones with the cut out for your tail are fine) and play the part of an adult here and have that polite conversation instead of acting like a 3rd grader and threatening bodily harm.
After all the mountains of heart-felt text I've spilled forth over the years on this forum, do you really think that that's what I'm about?

-Fox
 
After all the mountains of heart-felt text I've spilled forth over the years on this forum, do you really think that that's what I'm about?

-Fox

I *KNOW* you aren't about that. But... somebody who is reading this site for the first time, maybe drawn here because of postings about this crash (google sees all) don't know anything about you.
 
Here's the thing.

There's not a single airport around here that you have to climb above 1000' to get to. If you're halfway competent, you smoothly transition to the instruments and either make a 180* turn over the blue on your moving map, or truck through to the other side. AN IMC ENCOUNTER SHOULD NOT BE AN EMERGENCY FOR SOMEONE WITH AN INSTRUMENT RATING AND EVEN A LITTLE BIT OF TRAINING.

I was responding to the earlier post about icing in the clouds "12 months out of the year." It's also why I was asking about their operations and whether pax 135 IFR was authorized.
 
The Atari avionics are fine...as long as they work. I've seen similar issues with the Aspen systems.

Well, to be honest, I never really like it when an airplane is airworthy. I mean, where would be the fun in that? Really, I think only pansies fly airplanes that are in good working order. Real Men® fly broken, cantankerous contraptions that are bound to fall apart. I'm not satisfied unless I run the most possible risk, especially when I have two generations of an entire family in back. It makes me wet to live on the bleeding edge.

Rar.

Or perhaps, maybe, just maybe, the issues in question have been written up, as appropriate. And deferred as per the MEL.

Perhaps a write up doesn't do any good when you're in IMC and it fails anyway, and perhaps that's my point.

Perhaps pointing fingers at me and asking why I fly un-airworthy airplanes is something that will actually make me want to kick your ass, rather than have a polite conversation about the merits of appropriate backup systems and whether having IFR equipment requirements even for VFR in southeast Alaska might not be a better answer.

I do not trust the Cheltons as a sole-source instrument for navigation, and I don't trust a phone/iPad/handheld as an appropriate backup in a safety-critical application. To get me on board with the "Launch into whatever and fly the boxes" argument, you're going to have to start talking about having IFR-equipped airplanes with some form of EFFECTIVE backup system.

That's my point, and we can either go from there, or you can keep jabbing fingers at me and my fellow pilots. I promise one will be more conducive to conversation than the other.

-Fox

If you feel they're unreliable or if there's a long and distinguished list of MEL'd items, then at some point you, the PIC, have to do something.

I recall a certain B1900 operator (that everybody loves to hate) fired a CA for refusing an aircraft with multiple MELs. IIRC one was the TCAS, and the second was the pressurization. This would have him flying 21 bodies through a large, active training areas at 260 KTAS, below 10,000 ft, and it wasn't CAVU. Several days prior there had been a midair along that route, too. Was it legal to dispatch? Yes. The CA was fired, but he stood by his decision. Last I heard he had a wrongful termination case pending.

Over the years, I've developed this hierarchy: my life, my license, my job. You have to do what you feel is right.
 
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@Acrofox
Slow your roll kid. I gave you the benefit of doubt, seeing that we have both flown in the same austere place.

Acrofox said:
Perhaps pointing fingers at me and asking why I fly un-airworthy airplanes is something that will actually make me want to kick your ass, rather than have a polite conversation about the merits of appropriate backup systems and whether having IFR equipment requirements even for VFR in southeast Alaska might not be a better answer.

You need to walk away, and apologize.

You have seriously underestimated this community, if you think you can make off-hand cheeky remarks to a very good friend of mine, and get away with it.
 
@Acrofox
You need to walk away, and apologize.

You have seriously underestimated this community, if you think you can make off-hand cheeky remarks to a very good friend of mine, and get away with it.

I do not have an issue with your friend. You, on the other hand, can suck it. And for the record, there is no subtle point in this post.
 
*shrug* I don't think that's necessary. 99% of the time VFR is perfectly safe (as long as you're not running a river way lower than you need to be on a beautiful day). The recent accidents that we have probably causes for were operating so far past the margins of anything resembling prudent (300' OVC at night in the case of the Hageland st. Mary's crash) that you should just leave them out of any discussion on how to operate safely under VFR. Then again, after 50 some years of technology and relearning the same damn lessons about how not to crash maybe that is what would need to happen to change anything.
It wouldn't have to be a cluster either. Everyone could get together and make up a schedule that doesn't include waiting for the guy before. Edct times and whatnot. It's not like they don't run if traffic at 100x the volume elsewhere and make it work fine.
 
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