C207 crash Juneau

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ppragman said:
Not to go IFR ;)
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But you get half way there, in that black hole of weather reporting, and find yourself with deteriorating vis and/or ceilings. Your safe out would be to climb, but you have ice up there.

This is a similar trap the HEMS/HAA folks find themselves in.
 
ppragman said:
I agree. But getting companies to buy new airplanes is easier said than done. Of course, if the FAA made it easier to fly low level routes legally there, this whole thing wouldn't be a problem either.

Island Air Express in Klawock has really gotten the formula figured out perfectly for this sort of mission. IFR airplanes to destinations with crap weather and you can provide good scheduled service without freaking people out or running the risk of CFIT. That idea needs to spread more to the JNU area, but there's a lot of inertia and buying caravans when other companies can keep using their single pistons is a spooky proposition for an operator. Lots of competition down there.
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It does seem to be a frustrating situation to be in. Hopefully it won't be too much longer before the requisite amount of blood has been spilled to change things.
 
Beep said:
Simple, if you can't see the airport and be in a position to land while maintaining visual conditions you got to the alternate. You don't have to use the routing I just threw out for grins, a person can sit down with the airport charts and an enroute chart and find a route that is different as well as provide a lower altitude to transition from.
Or if the weather is VFR there is nothing wrong with doing the flight VFR, but if a pilot is scud running around trying to use local knowledge to find the airport because " they know how to make it work " it will eventually end in tears.
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1SM and clear of clouds is VFR.
 
Beep said:
Simple, if you can't see the airport and be in a position to land while maintaining visual conditions you got to the alternate. You don't have to use the routing I just threw out for grins, a person can sit down with the airport charts and an enroute chart and find a route that is different as well as provide a lower altitude to transition from.
Or if the weather is VFR there is nothing wrong with doing the flight VFR, but if a pilot is scud running around trying to use local knowledge to find the airport because " they know how to make it work " it will eventually end in tears.
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To my knowledge 5600 is as low as you're going to get on an IFR plan in that direction. @Roger Roger ?
You'd probably make it in 5 days a year?
 
Beep said:
Simple, if you can't see the airport and be in a position to land while maintaining visual conditions you got to the alternate. You don't have to use the routing I just threw out for grins, a person can sit down with the airport charts and an enroute chart and find a route that is different as well as provide a lower altitude to transition from.
Or if the weather is VFR there is nothing wrong with doing the flight VFR, but if a pilot is scud running around trying to use local knowledge to find the airport because " they know how to make it work " it will eventually end in tears.
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1SM and clear of clouds is VFR.
 
Beep said:
It does seem to be a frustrating situation to be in. Hopefully it won't be too much longer before the requisite amount of blood has been spilled to change things.
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I think we're hoping this crash is the requisite amount of blood.
 
I hope it is too. Also, not to not pick too much but 1000-3000 ceilings and 3-5 SM visibility is defined as marginal VFR, below that may be allowed by the FARs but doesn't mean it is advisable in every situation.
Trust me...I'm not trying to be flippant, I am very fortunate that I don't have to try to make an airport work. If I can't get in to Juneau I'm either headed to Sitka or possibly Anchorage since the boss usually has work to do there, too.
 
z987k said:
It would be so easy to make IFR GPS based routes in the middle of the channels at one or two thousand feet. Small approach segment down to 500ft, 1SM. I don't even fly down there, but you can figure it out pretty quick by looking at the sectional. Use twins so mid channel at 1000ft isn't unsafe.
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What is the RNP value of the capstone GPS unit?
 
Acrofox said:
Right now, the field is calling VFR. 6sm and 1200' ceilings, and a 737 just went missed.

I've flown a 15 minute flight to one of our destinations on a beautiful day, spent ten minutes turning around on the ground, launched to go back and found a wall of crap at Couverden, between me and home. Turned around to go back to the place I just left, and barely, barely got back in.

This is an airport that's 37nm away from my point of departure. Fifteen minutes of flying time.

That's why it matters.

-Fox
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Yup.
Just want to say again to all involved directly or indirectly: This is really a pity. Sorry it happened. We'll have to wait to see the investigation results.
Wx in Alaska is like Wx in many places outside AK. To wit, if you don't like it, wait 20 minutes. Having flown in AK (interior, mostly), I will say that it produces some of the most fickle Wx I've seen. Perhaps the timeline in AK is 5 minutes. Back in the days before GPS, I once got skunked out in Prince William Sound. Spent 20 minutes flying circles with 20 feet between me and the water and about the same distance between me and the clouds. It was rather terrifying. That said, it's not like I hadn't heard the stories. I shoulda known better, I suppose. But it is fickle as tame bull. I don't know, but if I was flying in AK today, I would create my own routes based on waypoints created during clear VFR flights. That seems like it would be a really easy way to avoid some of these troubles... at least as long as the RAIM remained. I mean, we are talking about VFR flights, correct? If that's the case, creating a known safe route would be perfectly legal, yes?
 
Roger Roger said:
Well we have a special approach that's like 860 mda Into hnh, and the "low" routes have mea of like 4500 on that hop. But otherwise yah.
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I didn't realize you could get that low. I mean honestly 860 is plenty low to make that an IFR only route. We have plenty of airports up here that have an mda of well over 2000 agl. We wait for the weather and so does our competitor. No rush. It's just part of living in that village.
 
Crop Duster said:
Yup.
I don't know, but if I was flying in AK today, I would create my own routes based on waypoints created during clear VFR flights. That seems like it would be a really easy way to avoid some of these troubles... at least as long as the RAIM remained. I mean, we are talking about VFR flights, correct? If that's the case, creating a known safe route would be perfectly legal, yes?
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That's what anyone who knows anything does these days.
 
z987k said:
I didn't realize you could get that low. I mean honestly 860 is plenty low to make that an IFR only route. We have plenty of airports up here that have an mda of well over 2000 agl. We wait for the weather and so does our competitor. No rush. It's just part of living in that village.
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Hey, I'm all on board with that. But as long as the FARs require a second pilot or an autopilot, dual AHRS AND dual power for the mechanical gyro, and don't allow ATC to separate at normal IFR intervals using the ADSB returns, you're going to see operators blasting off in 207s gittin r dun while the Caravan is sitting there waiting for the Navajo ahead of him to clear 7000' and the jet holding at sisters to shoot his full approach. It's just the reality of it, or it will be until all the 207s are beer cans (I can only hope for that day [because the 207 is a WTF airplane]).
 
deadstick said:
But you get half way there, in that black hole of weather reporting, and find yourself with deteriorating vis and/or ceilings. Your safe out would be to climb, but you have ice up there.

This is a similar trap the HEMS/HAA folks find themselves in.
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Here's the thing.

There's not a single airport around here that you have to climb above 1000' to get to. If you're halfway competent, you smoothly transition to the instruments and either make a 180* turn over the blue on your moving map, or truck through to the other side. AN IMC ENCOUNTER SHOULD NOT BE AN EMERGENCY FOR SOMEONE WITH AN INSTRUMENT RATING AND EVEN A LITTLE BIT OF TRAINING.
 
deadstick said:
I was curious. The only non-USCG SAR/MEDEVAC helicopter I've seen was a Bell 412 and that's a serious helicopter, but I'm biased. ;)

I need to think about this some more. I know some single pistons can do IFR 135. How about these 207's? What avionics mods were you all talking about? Can you elaborate on the problems with the IFR structure up there?

Thanks.
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image.jpgimage.jpg
This is what you might see on a typical EFIS screen. Note the green skyway boxes (waypoints appear as magenta quidditch hoops) and ability to set altitude at any given waypoint. Not seen is the ability to set any climb or descent angle you want. Also full TAWS is integrated into the system. It's like playing a video game.
 
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