chunk75.......I have to admit that aviation is no differen't than any other field.......A lot of positions in my field want you to be certified on systems before you start with them. Buying training seems to be the nature of the beast....personally I hate it....To be honest it sounds like both systems have their flaws.....First, you have to bust your ass to save $10,000 -which is a lot; or, you could borrow it and pay interest. Next, you still have to log the hours. This is all training that a good company should pay for......Now you have the instructor option. The problem with this option is not everyone wants to instruct and even worse not everyone has the talent to instruct. I'm sure there are a lot of students that go on to be good pilots, but the truth is that a lot of them still make horriable teachers/instructors. It's not easy to be a effective instructor. Similar to other aspects in life you need practice, and I don't believe attempting to learn in a school where people are trying to grasp the basics is a good place......So here's a question...lets assume you are the new president of GA and you could create your own system that students must take to become pilots....How would you do it?......I'll start by saying: I would create a universal school with multiple campuses of coarse...In order to be accepted you need to be qualified-having the money does not count as qualifide. Anytime a airline projects that they will need pilots they could enter a bid for one....As these bids come in the school can begin testing people and start there training. In short this would all resemble the same system that the military/police and fire dept. has with hiring people into positions. If schools need instructors they can bid with the unions to get pilots to come and teach, and those that elect to should still maintain there seniority and pay.....Okay it's your turn.....what would yo do?
Buying Turbine time
- Thread starter JoeBlow
- Start date
TravelinMan
New Member
Ok, I have no doubt that instructing makes you a better pilot. In fact that is the route I plan on taking. But just b/c you don't instruct, doesn't make you an inferior pilot. I already made the point that we all pay for training in my Whats the BIg Deal post. As for towing banners, yes it is a paying job, but how much experience are you really gaining? You are indeed gaining hours, which is always a good thing, but experience and knowledge aren't gained by flying in circles all day. However, if someone had the money to buy hours in a 1900 program, they would be gaining hours, AND knowledge. Bottom line, time is money. Not everyone has the money to buy experience and hours, not everyone has time to build hours and experience.
It's just very disheartening to see people shunned b/c they are doing something different. I've said it once, and I'll say it again. There is more than one way to skin a cat. It's real easy for someone to point a finger and say that someone is selling out. But it just might surprise you to find out that they didn't sell out, ........they bought in
It's just very disheartening to see people shunned b/c they are doing something different. I've said it once, and I'll say it again. There is more than one way to skin a cat. It's real easy for someone to point a finger and say that someone is selling out. But it just might surprise you to find out that they didn't sell out, ........they bought in
chunk75
Well-Known Member
Bluesky....
You're a democrat, aren't you? Well....I'll get back to that later.
First, aviation is unlike any other industry in the world.
1. The people wanting in are not doing it (generally) for the money, they are doing it because they have dreamed of doing it for years. Not too many lawyers or SysAdmins have the love for their profession that pilots do....for sooo many years, in their offtime, the sacrifices made to do it...etc.
2. The options aren't CFI or PFT. There is banner towing, fish spotting, 135 operators, frieght, tour operators, traffic spotting, etc. etc. etc. What you are describing isn't training for a job, it's buying a job.
Okay...back to the first bit....
Let's assume I am the King of your fantasy world (I know I am anyway if it's Ms. Bluesky!)...what would I change? Little to nothing! I believe in capitalism. That's what's great about America, regardless of what mrvic says. I started with the brains that God gave me and a wonderful family. I started with more in the latter category than most...I had both a great dad and mom to raise me, as well as my siblings. My family was not/is not rich. I have no relatives in the aviation biz. I have no insider's track.
I worked hard, joined the Navy and earned a spot as an S-3B Viking SENSO. That is arguably the toughest title for an enlisted guy to obtain in the Navy, short of SEAL. All me.
Now, I am financing my way through FlightSafety. Partly VA $$ I earned, partly a loan. All on my credit and hard work (obviously my wife has worked just as hard as I have to help achieve our goals). Once I complete the course here, I will instruct here. And, when the time comes, I will be picked up by a regional or frax (doubtful on the frax). I have my family, my wife, the Navy, myself, good planning, hard work, and frankly, God to thank. No one else.
I know when I get picked up, it's ME the airline is interested in. NOT MY WALLET! I will have that piece of mind my entire career. If you pay-for-job, can you say that?
Look, this is America. Regardless of any external issues that so many people blame for their failures in life, if you pick yourself up, work hard, be honest, and do your best, you have a great shot at winning the prize.
So, I really wouldn't change anything with the exception of the demolition of PFT/PFJ! Free market rules! Fair market is king!
Good Luck in whatever you decide...
Chunk
You're a democrat, aren't you? Well....I'll get back to that later.
First, aviation is unlike any other industry in the world.
1. The people wanting in are not doing it (generally) for the money, they are doing it because they have dreamed of doing it for years. Not too many lawyers or SysAdmins have the love for their profession that pilots do....for sooo many years, in their offtime, the sacrifices made to do it...etc.
2. The options aren't CFI or PFT. There is banner towing, fish spotting, 135 operators, frieght, tour operators, traffic spotting, etc. etc. etc. What you are describing isn't training for a job, it's buying a job.
Okay...back to the first bit....
Let's assume I am the King of your fantasy world (I know I am anyway if it's Ms. Bluesky!)...what would I change? Little to nothing! I believe in capitalism. That's what's great about America, regardless of what mrvic says. I started with the brains that God gave me and a wonderful family. I started with more in the latter category than most...I had both a great dad and mom to raise me, as well as my siblings. My family was not/is not rich. I have no relatives in the aviation biz. I have no insider's track.
I worked hard, joined the Navy and earned a spot as an S-3B Viking SENSO. That is arguably the toughest title for an enlisted guy to obtain in the Navy, short of SEAL. All me.
Now, I am financing my way through FlightSafety. Partly VA $$ I earned, partly a loan. All on my credit and hard work (obviously my wife has worked just as hard as I have to help achieve our goals). Once I complete the course here, I will instruct here. And, when the time comes, I will be picked up by a regional or frax (doubtful on the frax). I have my family, my wife, the Navy, myself, good planning, hard work, and frankly, God to thank. No one else.
I know when I get picked up, it's ME the airline is interested in. NOT MY WALLET! I will have that piece of mind my entire career. If you pay-for-job, can you say that?
Look, this is America. Regardless of any external issues that so many people blame for their failures in life, if you pick yourself up, work hard, be honest, and do your best, you have a great shot at winning the prize.
So, I really wouldn't change anything with the exception of the demolition of PFT/PFJ! Free market rules! Fair market is king!
Good Luck in whatever you decide...
Chunk
Believe me, if you don't have the talent to instruct, you're going to be a • captain, or have to work your tail off in order not to become one. Just my opinion.
About paying for training. Umm, the airline just isn't going to take you from a bridge program and drop you into the right seat... There is SO MUCH beyond flying a simulator that goes into becoming an airline pilot.
About starting an operation.. Hmm, I really don't agree with the program you described. Personally, if I had to hire 100 pilots for my airline, as hard as this may be for people to digest, I think I'd hire the following:
1. Family guys - less chance of knocking up co-workers and out until 4 hours prior to pickup tomcatting with the locals in bars.
2. People with minimum 3,000 hours mainline (1,500 regional) and for mainline 1,000 of which are with a part-121 based carrier. At least 500 hours of dual given/IP or as part of a flight crew.
They've had some time in the industry, have the "new job field euphoria" drain away and have figured out what "works" in the business and what doesn't. What do those numbers mean? Well, at least 4 years of professional flying.
3. Guys that have a "story". This is a highly social job and if the only thing an applicant has done is plunk down $50,000 at a flight school after two years of liberal arts at a local community college, chances are he probably isn't going to be very interesting to fly with. Nothing was more annoying as a captain (although only for a short time) when my FO would freak out when he saw St. Elmo's Fire at night and pulled out a camera for some flash photography. Hold on there, Petey! Don't take a... !!FLASH!! thaaaanks...
For example, I saw another airline crew (not Delta) near a layover hotel that sat and bitched at one another for an entire dinner and then stiffed the waitress for the tip. How do you think that translates over into the cockpit and customer service?
4. I want some "dirt" under the nails. Some "Been there, done that" attitude mixed with "Let's back each other up and stay out of the newspaper". I really don't want to hear 3 legs worth of how bad it was when your school reprimanded you for wearing the wrong epaulets during a "mission" in a Cessna 150. Tell me about overboosting a Beech 99 full of dog poo, shooting a raw data ILS Boston-Logan during a snow storm or crew antics on a 14 hour C-17 flight.
5. Someone who is going to learn things well, the first couple of times, not go whining into the chief pilots office and have enough intestinal fortitude to handle situations on the spot without having to run issues through the bureaucracy. Captain step on your ego? Chat over a beer, work it out and unless it's something very extreme, keep it off paper.
I'm not sure that you can be trained for that in a few hundred hours.
But these are just my opinions and it might change tomorrow!
About paying for training. Umm, the airline just isn't going to take you from a bridge program and drop you into the right seat... There is SO MUCH beyond flying a simulator that goes into becoming an airline pilot.
About starting an operation.. Hmm, I really don't agree with the program you described. Personally, if I had to hire 100 pilots for my airline, as hard as this may be for people to digest, I think I'd hire the following:
1. Family guys - less chance of knocking up co-workers and out until 4 hours prior to pickup tomcatting with the locals in bars.
2. People with minimum 3,000 hours mainline (1,500 regional) and for mainline 1,000 of which are with a part-121 based carrier. At least 500 hours of dual given/IP or as part of a flight crew.
They've had some time in the industry, have the "new job field euphoria" drain away and have figured out what "works" in the business and what doesn't. What do those numbers mean? Well, at least 4 years of professional flying.
3. Guys that have a "story". This is a highly social job and if the only thing an applicant has done is plunk down $50,000 at a flight school after two years of liberal arts at a local community college, chances are he probably isn't going to be very interesting to fly with. Nothing was more annoying as a captain (although only for a short time) when my FO would freak out when he saw St. Elmo's Fire at night and pulled out a camera for some flash photography. Hold on there, Petey! Don't take a... !!FLASH!! thaaaanks...
For example, I saw another airline crew (not Delta) near a layover hotel that sat and bitched at one another for an entire dinner and then stiffed the waitress for the tip. How do you think that translates over into the cockpit and customer service?
4. I want some "dirt" under the nails. Some "Been there, done that" attitude mixed with "Let's back each other up and stay out of the newspaper". I really don't want to hear 3 legs worth of how bad it was when your school reprimanded you for wearing the wrong epaulets during a "mission" in a Cessna 150. Tell me about overboosting a Beech 99 full of dog poo, shooting a raw data ILS Boston-Logan during a snow storm or crew antics on a 14 hour C-17 flight.
5. Someone who is going to learn things well, the first couple of times, not go whining into the chief pilots office and have enough intestinal fortitude to handle situations on the spot without having to run issues through the bureaucracy. Captain step on your ego? Chat over a beer, work it out and unless it's something very extreme, keep it off paper.
I'm not sure that you can be trained for that in a few hundred hours.
But these are just my opinions and it might change tomorrow!
averyrm
Well-Known Member
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
As for towing banners, yes it is a paying job, but how much experience are you really gaining? You are indeed gaining hours, which is always a good thing, but experience and knowledge aren't gained by flying in circles all day.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just letting you know there is a ton of experience gained by towing banners. First off is the experience with the low end of the flight envelope - remember slow flight? Try doing it hours on end - it really builds up your skills (I've actually been flying with 0 indicated on the A/S). Along with landing tailwheel aircraft, on-time performance, etc. Also picking up and dropping the banners really makes you aware of your plane and ground reference. Then there is often communication with ATC, lots of cross country time, night flight, loading problems. It's much, much harder than "just flying circles" - trust me.
I'm not saying CFI's not a good way to go, just saying there's lots of experience to be gained.
Besides, all airline captains do is turn on the autopilot, right?
As for towing banners, yes it is a paying job, but how much experience are you really gaining? You are indeed gaining hours, which is always a good thing, but experience and knowledge aren't gained by flying in circles all day.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just letting you know there is a ton of experience gained by towing banners. First off is the experience with the low end of the flight envelope - remember slow flight? Try doing it hours on end - it really builds up your skills (I've actually been flying with 0 indicated on the A/S). Along with landing tailwheel aircraft, on-time performance, etc. Also picking up and dropping the banners really makes you aware of your plane and ground reference. Then there is often communication with ATC, lots of cross country time, night flight, loading problems. It's much, much harder than "just flying circles" - trust me.
I'm not saying CFI's not a good way to go, just saying there's lots of experience to be gained.
Besides, all airline captains do is turn on the autopilot, right?
Doug,
The operation I mentioned here was just the tip of the iceberg which I don't want to get into b/c it is a completely differen't debate..What I'm driving at is this type of system would eliminate debate:what academy you go to or how you pay for your training. I read one comment where someone wrote they know a recriuter who will not hire someone if they attended one of the major academies. In short, many are labeling others, and if they are doing it now chances are it's probably going to happen in the cockpit. Before you know it you have two people arguing NOT just at dinner but all the time. Durning my last six months in the navy we had a plane crash from our squadron-the pilots lived:thank God. The report read that the pilot, and navigator were in verbal conflict durning a descent. The pilot lost focus, and the plane stalled at a low altitude.... Now that is not the type of people I want to work with...I want to work with the person you mentioned about having my back. The true problem arises when a someone incorporats their personal agends into the hiring system. EXAMPLE: I read the type of pilot that you would hire:
1. Family guys - less chance of knocking up co-workers and out until 4 hours prior to pickup tomcatting with the locals in bars.
Now I respect that this is just your opinion, but the truth is this needs to stay at home and not in the work place b/c this is a form of discrimination toward single people. In summary, their is to much labeling that is translating into debate and bigger problems. Personal agendas should stay away from the recruiting office. Pilots should be hired on the basis that they quality people : pleasure to be with and a good pilot, and not b/c they married before the age of 20 or after 30, or b/c they grew up with or without siblings or did there trianing in a differen't form....etc....etc....etc..
Chunk75....if you read this i want to let you i will repond to you later. I don't want to you to think i'm harrasing you....believe it or not i'm pulling for you b/c you are ex-navy.
The operation I mentioned here was just the tip of the iceberg which I don't want to get into b/c it is a completely differen't debate..What I'm driving at is this type of system would eliminate debate:what academy you go to or how you pay for your training. I read one comment where someone wrote they know a recriuter who will not hire someone if they attended one of the major academies. In short, many are labeling others, and if they are doing it now chances are it's probably going to happen in the cockpit. Before you know it you have two people arguing NOT just at dinner but all the time. Durning my last six months in the navy we had a plane crash from our squadron-the pilots lived:thank God. The report read that the pilot, and navigator were in verbal conflict durning a descent. The pilot lost focus, and the plane stalled at a low altitude.... Now that is not the type of people I want to work with...I want to work with the person you mentioned about having my back. The true problem arises when a someone incorporats their personal agends into the hiring system. EXAMPLE: I read the type of pilot that you would hire:
1. Family guys - less chance of knocking up co-workers and out until 4 hours prior to pickup tomcatting with the locals in bars.
Now I respect that this is just your opinion, but the truth is this needs to stay at home and not in the work place b/c this is a form of discrimination toward single people. In summary, their is to much labeling that is translating into debate and bigger problems. Personal agendas should stay away from the recruiting office. Pilots should be hired on the basis that they quality people : pleasure to be with and a good pilot, and not b/c they married before the age of 20 or after 30, or b/c they grew up with or without siblings or did there trianing in a differen't form....etc....etc....etc..
Chunk75....if you read this i want to let you i will repond to you later. I don't want to you to think i'm harrasing you....believe it or not i'm pulling for you b/c you are ex-navy.
To be quite frank, a lot of airlines look for that already. A lot of carriers use the MMPI (Minnesota multi-phase personality inventory) to screen out certain personalities and if you spike in a few areas that they deem are "undesirable", you get weeded out somewhere else in the process.
Crew social skills are deadly important. There have been lots of case studies where the crew had such a disdain for one another, that one of them took joy in watching his crewmember screw up to the point that it costed them their lives. I think, and correct me immediately if I'm wrong, that there was a cargoliner accident in the past couple of years with this situation.
On the jumpseat a few years ago at a different airline, I watched this crew bitterly argue about politics to the point where I thought they were going to fight on the ground. On the approach, one crewmember just tuned his partner out and the flying pilot was well under Vref on the approach - didn't realize that the autothrottles had disconnected.
I said, "Hey (insert crewmember here), your autothrottle got disconnected".
"Oh [expletive deleted], thanks" was his response and he manually corrected. The other pilot just sat there, smirked and shook his head in pleasure that he got caught screwing up.
Crew social skills are deadly important. There have been lots of case studies where the crew had such a disdain for one another, that one of them took joy in watching his crewmember screw up to the point that it costed them their lives. I think, and correct me immediately if I'm wrong, that there was a cargoliner accident in the past couple of years with this situation.
On the jumpseat a few years ago at a different airline, I watched this crew bitterly argue about politics to the point where I thought they were going to fight on the ground. On the approach, one crewmember just tuned his partner out and the flying pilot was well under Vref on the approach - didn't realize that the autothrottles had disconnected.
I said, "Hey (insert crewmember here), your autothrottle got disconnected".
"Oh [expletive deleted], thanks" was his response and he manually corrected. The other pilot just sat there, smirked and shook his head in pleasure that he got caught screwing up.
Wow........very concerned. Thanks for the story...I don't think you can ever stress or preech to much on having a good personality. Your website is great and I commend you for dispalying it....When I first logged on I thought it was a great source for insight-still is, but at times it seems more like a war zone.
I admit arguing with my co-workers, but we never stab each other in the back to the point where one of us is happy to see the other screw up.....In fact we even cover for each other. I truly appreciate what i have in them: trust, and i say that b/c i know how hard it is to find people with a warm personality.. There is one thing i can say about a lot of my co-workers, and that is they also my friends-think about it.
I admit arguing with my co-workers, but we never stab each other in the back to the point where one of us is happy to see the other screw up.....In fact we even cover for each other. I truly appreciate what i have in them: trust, and i say that b/c i know how hard it is to find people with a warm personality.. There is one thing i can say about a lot of my co-workers, and that is they also my friends-think about it.
"First, aviation is unlike any other industry in the world".
The only thing I read here is fragmented statement. I'm sure we could agree on how aviation is differen't than any other field, but to say it is UNLIKE any other industry is ridiculous. In aviation LIKE ohter industries companies have to market, there are unions, companies have insurance for there product, workers need to pay for their primary learning. EXAMPLE: Just like you are paying for a flight school I had to go to college for the position I am in- which I had to cover.......etc...etc...etc...i can go on for ever.......
Am I a democrat!....not going to answer that!!!!!!
I believe in implementing the system that suits the situation reguardless if it's demo or rep. If I had a trophy for hypocrite of the year that would definilty go to you....
You write that you believe in capitalism, but everything you have implied until now has contradicted that....your the one lableling people b/c they don't take the traditional route(your way)..You wrote that the only thing you would change is eliminating PFT. Well you just eliminated a option......You enjoy the concept of capitalism up until the point that it no longer conveniences you, and profits others....you pay alot of money to go to flightsafety so that someday you'll get that high paying job. In essence what are you looking for? That's right! you are trying to turn a porfit. I'm sure you enjoy flying, but i don't believe your going to turn down a large check eithier.....Guess what? Everyone else is attempting the same goal-trying to turn a profit. So why do you care when a company wants to sell it's right seat, why do you care when xyz academy wants to charge this much......they live in the same capitalist society that you live in.
Your afarid that someday a PFTer will steel a job from you. This is a source of tension for you b/c you wrote that you are working your butt off the traditional way to get the brass ring.....Let me tell you instructing someone how to fly is not the only way to work your butt off. If someone is digging ditches to earn $10,000 to buy time they are not going to enjoy you labeling them and I don't think they are going to take it sitting down. I don't know why you have this idea that your buying a job through pft....there are no guarntees...What are the odds that you will even reiceve a job with the company you buy time with......your buying training that you didn't have before and it doesn't matter if xyz profits-they have a right to....you say they are taking jobs away by this concept......well prove it-what is the economical imapct, what are the numbers, is there a feasibilty report on this matter....
You know what's ironic:LIKE you I am going to train as a intstructor, but UNLIKE you i'm not going to label or hold anomsity for anyone b/c they are PFTers. They like everyone elese will have my respect.....In closing I want to write I am NOT your enemy....One day we may end-up flying the big iron togethor, and I want to walk way saying it was a pleasure working with you....Don't create a gruge b/c someone utlized other options. If this debate all started b/c you were misinterpeted while giving advice...then I aplolgize.
The only thing I read here is fragmented statement. I'm sure we could agree on how aviation is differen't than any other field, but to say it is UNLIKE any other industry is ridiculous. In aviation LIKE ohter industries companies have to market, there are unions, companies have insurance for there product, workers need to pay for their primary learning. EXAMPLE: Just like you are paying for a flight school I had to go to college for the position I am in- which I had to cover.......etc...etc...etc...i can go on for ever.......
Am I a democrat!....not going to answer that!!!!!!
I believe in implementing the system that suits the situation reguardless if it's demo or rep. If I had a trophy for hypocrite of the year that would definilty go to you....
You write that you believe in capitalism, but everything you have implied until now has contradicted that....your the one lableling people b/c they don't take the traditional route(your way)..You wrote that the only thing you would change is eliminating PFT. Well you just eliminated a option......You enjoy the concept of capitalism up until the point that it no longer conveniences you, and profits others....you pay alot of money to go to flightsafety so that someday you'll get that high paying job. In essence what are you looking for? That's right! you are trying to turn a porfit. I'm sure you enjoy flying, but i don't believe your going to turn down a large check eithier.....Guess what? Everyone else is attempting the same goal-trying to turn a profit. So why do you care when a company wants to sell it's right seat, why do you care when xyz academy wants to charge this much......they live in the same capitalist society that you live in.
Your afarid that someday a PFTer will steel a job from you. This is a source of tension for you b/c you wrote that you are working your butt off the traditional way to get the brass ring.....Let me tell you instructing someone how to fly is not the only way to work your butt off. If someone is digging ditches to earn $10,000 to buy time they are not going to enjoy you labeling them and I don't think they are going to take it sitting down. I don't know why you have this idea that your buying a job through pft....there are no guarntees...What are the odds that you will even reiceve a job with the company you buy time with......your buying training that you didn't have before and it doesn't matter if xyz profits-they have a right to....you say they are taking jobs away by this concept......well prove it-what is the economical imapct, what are the numbers, is there a feasibilty report on this matter....
You know what's ironic:LIKE you I am going to train as a intstructor, but UNLIKE you i'm not going to label or hold anomsity for anyone b/c they are PFTers. They like everyone elese will have my respect.....In closing I want to write I am NOT your enemy....One day we may end-up flying the big iron togethor, and I want to walk way saying it was a pleasure working with you....Don't create a gruge b/c someone utlized other options. If this debate all started b/c you were misinterpeted while giving advice...then I aplolgize.
chunk75
Well-Known Member
I have tried to be amicable in this debate....
How am I a hypocrite? The Democrat remark was a joke....you sounded like you wanted to regulate everything....that is generally a Democratic point of view. No flame, just fact.
Look, all I'm saying is that you shouldn't screw your fellow pilot in order to further your career. That's all.
BTW, what squadron were you with? What was your rate?
Just curious,
Chunk
How am I a hypocrite? The Democrat remark was a joke....you sounded like you wanted to regulate everything....that is generally a Democratic point of view. No flame, just fact.
Look, all I'm saying is that you shouldn't screw your fellow pilot in order to further your career. That's all.
BTW, what squadron were you with? What was your rate?
Just curious,
Chunk
Well, sometimes the website becomes a battlezone because 90% of my users are "Type A" and male. Pretty much the perfect combination for a guaranteed verbal slug-fest.
Heated debate is healthy, right up to the point where people straight out insult one another -- at that point, I've got to pull out the Jetcareers-brand Louisville Slugger and whack a few users upside the head.
A good personality is extremely important in this career because it affects everything from your networking contacts to your probationary year success (or lack thereof).
Heated debate is healthy, right up to the point where people straight out insult one another -- at that point, I've got to pull out the Jetcareers-brand Louisville Slugger and whack a few users upside the head.
A good personality is extremely important in this career because it affects everything from your networking contacts to your probationary year success (or lack thereof).
Chunk75.........I was a AE ( airplane electrician) on EA-6B's. I was based out of Whidbey Island, WA attached to the USS Theodore Roosevelt. Don't get me wrong I was not trying to pick a argument. Just trying to make peace. Actually the operation I mentioned already exist. It's the same program military pilots have in place. My brother went through the program. After he left flight school for SCIR (I think this is the acroynm for there survival school) school he decided that ten years in the navy was to long. He asked for reassignment, and never flew again. I believe he just did not want to get dropped in the middle of a forest while being chased, having to eat beetles and worms, and no shower(oh well-who really knows). Airline pilots should go through the same survival school (just kidding of coarse). If Doug is reading this I'm sure he's thinking no way, and somehow the peanuts on board don't sound so bad anymore....lol....I looked into flightsafety. No appeal for Vero. If FSI was in the Miami-Ft. Laurderdal area, or Orlando I would have strongly considered it.....I grew up in the inner city of Chicago so I need a little faster pace, plus I have family in the two areas mentioned. By the way, what is tuition at FSI?.........Well, good luck and hope to see working the cockpit of a airliner