jhugz
Well-Known Member
Your IFR clearance "clears" you into the controlled airspace, except perhaps special use airspace.
3-2-1. General said:
Not the same case for VFR.
3-2-1. General said:
Busting Class D Airspace
- Thread starter Joestructor
- Start date
Your IFR clearance "clears" you into the controlled airspace, except perhaps special use airspace.
Not the same case for VFR.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
The local controller contacts you on the approach frequency.
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
Ahhh, no. Your landing clearance will come from approach control.
mooneyguy
been around forever
well, from what a CURRENT tracon boss told me...You are wrong. If your going through someone elses airspace you had better have approval to do so. My guess would be socal is handling it for you which they can do. If they don't, then you had better call the D before entering!
KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
You don't need a clearance to operate VFR in a class D airspace. You have to establish 2 way communications with ATC. If you were on VFR flight following, its tough not to be in 2 way communications with ATC.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
I've done 2 PAR approaches in my career. Both times I received the landing clearances from the "final" controller, however both times the tower checked in on the "final frequency" to monitor. I can't find any good information on landing clearances in FAA publications to go any farther than this. Plus, this discussion really doesn't have a whole lot of usefulness in our previous discussion.
You need to establish two-way radio communications w/ the ATC facility providing air traffic services prior to entering THAT AIRSPACE. SOCAL APP would not be the facility providing air traffic services "Controlling Agency" in the class d airspace under visual flight rules, Chino tower would be. If APP tries to put you through airspace that isn't his while under visual flight rules (refer to the above AIM extract), be sure to challenge him and verify you're cleared through the D.
91.129 said:
AIM 3.2.1 said:
KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
The big issue I have with how you describe it is with the use of cleared. I wish people would stop saying things with being cleared through a Class D airspace. Use the word "Clearance" when it is required, such as IFR/VFR Class B. Otherwise, say approved or whatever. Don't use cleared unless it's actually required.
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
As an ATC'er I ran more than 1000 aircraft down a radar final. Tower wouldn't even know what frequency the aircraft was on let alone have a reason to monitor the approach.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
It's kind of a gray area of terminology, but I do see your point. You don't need a clearance to enter the D, however you need radio communication requirements. If you're relying on an approach controller to get you through a class D airspace VFR I need to hear those magic words "Cleared into Chino's Class D" otherwise I'm not going into the airspace. If I hear those magic words, I now know that APP control has coordinated my VFR transition w/ the local controller and my butt is covered. Anytime APP control has put me through a D, that is what I've heard. I've never heard anything like this over APP control:
N924PA you've meet the radio communications requirements to enter Chino's Class D.
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
That's where your having trouble. Tower has a lot less responsibility than you think. Often a control tower is limited to operations on the ground, taxing aircraft, keeping the runways clear, lights and the like. Approach control owns sequencing traffic. Even much of the class D airspace is often owned by approach control per a LOA. Haven't you ever called a tower "6 miles out with delta" and they tell you to contact approach control?
Every GCA I've done, I contacted tower on rollout. Approach handed me to the final/GCA controller, and they conducted the approach. Of course, they coordinated with the tower letting them know I'm coming, but the physical clearance for landing was relayed to me through the final controller. The first time I talked to tower was "Tower, XX, GCA rollout".
A150K
Well-Known Member
The only civilian Class D in my area with an app. freq. that I know of is ROW, but if there is a freq. listed in the AFD than I would always contact that one first. I was under the impression that most Class D towers (even with radar) couldn't provide seperation services period due to the controllers not being radar certified (kind of a question for you since you were an ATCer and probably know more than I do).
TUCKnTRUCK
That guy
I've long since forgotten what it's like to fly so low that you have to deal with "d" airspace around towers. 
My experience has been, If you are VFR receiving advisories, give em a call on com 2, or query APP/center. IFR, stay right on with APP.. not your issue anymore, as you are under atc control in controlled airspace, and separation services are being provided.
Remember, when calling a D tower, all you really need to say is XX miles this side, transitioning at this altitude. As soon as they reply you have met the two way radio com.. from that point just keep listening, and give em a shout when you clear. I've had most just say approved as requested, Freq change approved. though.
These days, the only Class D worries I have, have to do with airspeed
My experience has been, If you are VFR receiving advisories, give em a call on com 2, or query APP/center. IFR, stay right on with APP.. not your issue anymore, as you are under atc control in controlled airspace, and separation services are being provided.
Remember, when calling a D tower, all you really need to say is XX miles this side, transitioning at this altitude. As soon as they reply you have met the two way radio com.. from that point just keep listening, and give em a shout when you clear. I've had most just say approved as requested, Freq change approved. though.
These days, the only Class D worries I have, have to do with airspeed
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Before you say that, review FAA Order 7110.65N Air Traffic Control:
==============================
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.
REFERENCE
FAAO JO 7210.3, Para 4-3-1, Letters of Agreement.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport in Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.
b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.
NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.
c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility.
REFERENCE
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-1-17, Radio Communications Transfer.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 3-1-11, Surface Area Restrictions.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-6-1, Application.
14 CFR Section 91.129, Operations in Class D Airspace.
==============================
Notice, though, that the note about pilot responsibility talks in terms of through, not into for landing. Whether that is intentional and reflects different rules I don't know, but I personally treat the two differently.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
I guess I'm wrong on the case of "through" traffic. Thanks for the reference. Both of the cases that I know of happened on practice approaches under VFR "into" a D. It could very well be the case. Part C still makes it nice and fuzzy though. I guess it all depends on LOA's.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
I think it's the existence of the LOAs that led to the note. Switching to tower when passing through can mean speaking to the "wrong" ATC facility and higher workload for both pilot and ATC. OTOH, I figure when heading in to land, you're going to be speaking with Tower at some point.
tgrayson
New Member
What about this LOI:
Mike Granby
605 Holly Court
York, Pennsylvania 17406
Dear Mr. Granby:
In a letter dated February 10, 2006, you asked us about the meaning and application of Title 14, Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) section 91.130(c)(1) which addresses arrival or through flight in Class C airspace. 14 CFR § 91.130(c)(1) states in relevant part:
Each person operating an aircraft in Class C airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements: Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the [emphasis supplied] ATC (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.
In your letter, you inquired whether use of the definite article “the”, which is italicized above, indicates a requirement to contact the air traffic control (ATC) facility charged with managing the specific Class C airspace or whether contact with any ATC facility would suffice. The answer is that the regulation requires that the operator contact the specific ATC facility responsible for the Class C airspace in question. In the case of Class C airspace, that facility is the Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON).
Also in your letter you posited a situation in which a pilot operating under visual flight rules (VFR) is communicating with an Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC or Center) while approaching the boundary of Class C airspace. In your hypothetical, you inquired whether a pilot would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) if he enters the Class C airspace while in two-way communication with the Center and not the TRACON. You further inquired if the Center’s “failure to hand him off” would relieve the pilot of the responsibility to establish two-way communication with the TRACON prior to entering their Class C airspace.
The operator of the aircraft would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) in the hypothetical that you present. Under section 91.3, the pilot in command is directly responsible for and is the final authority as to the operation of the aircraft. The receipt of traffic advisories from a Center or any other ATC facility does not relieve the pilot of the responsibilities of section 91.3.
Advisory services such as flight following are furnished to VFR traffic as a courtesy when workloads permit. By providing this courtesy, the Center does not obligate itself to advise pilots operating under VFR of their geographic position nor of their obligations under section 91.130(c)(1) or any other sections of 14 CFR . However, the FAA does recognize that there could be circumstances that mitigate the violation depending on the actual contents of the two-way communication between the pilot and the Center.
If you have any further questions please contact Mr. Naveen Rao of my staff at
(202) 267-3073. Thank you for your inquiry.
Sincerely,
Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
Just because an ATC'er jumped your poop when approach sent you over 3 miles out does not make you in the wrong. It simply means there was a break down in the system somewhere. When it happened to me I pointed out that approach had just transfered me over. Th local controller backed down.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
It didn't happen to me, and warning letters were issued by the FAA.