Busting Class D Airspace

This probably belongs in the ATC forum, but what about cases of a late handoff from approach/center? I know that it depends on the airpsace, ie, some approach facilities must call/coordinate every aircraft, others never talk to them (OJC, MYF). I've been on many IFR arrivals where approach will have us descend into a D on the downwind vector or won't switch us over to tower until we're a mile or two deep in the D. I've never been very comfortable with this and will usually be proactive about it and call up on the #2 comm, or at least ask approach if they've coordinated the through-flight.
 
XcalibeR said:
This probably belongs in the ATC forum, but what about cases of a late handoff from approach/center? I know that it depends on the airpsace, ie, some approach facilities must call/coordinate every aircraft, others never talk to them (OJC, MYF). I've been on many IFR arrivals where approach will have us descend into a D on the downwind vector or won't switch us over to tower until we're a mile or two deep in the D. I've never been very comfortable with this and will usually be proactive about it and call up on the #2 comm, or at least ask approach if they've coordinated the through-flight.
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YOU are responsible for making contact, no one else. Most of the time, you will be forgiven. But when I am on my way in to someones airspace, and the frequency is busy, I just switch. Or, if the frequency is dead, query BEFORE it becomes an issue. It's YOUR responsibility.
 
I've instructed for a few years, (still do), and have supervised CFIs for some of those years as well. From my experiences I'd say the following;

-Don't confess over the radio unless you positively must. I would consider that akin to calling the police and reporting yourself for speeding.

-DO get out of said airspace as cautiously and expeditiously as possible.

-DO be on the lookout for other airplanes to maintain as much separation from other aircraft as you can. Don't give the controller a loss of separation issue. This may tie their hands on the violation thing.

-DO call the controller if asked. Be a good listener and apologetic. Most controllers don't want to start violation proceedings, especially if you are sorry/own up.

-DON'T turn off the transponder, as some on here have said, that makes a bad situation worse. It could possibly piss off the controller enough to move them from scolding you to violating you.

-DO fill out a NASA report as soon as you can.

Best,
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
We're in a serious "it depends" area. The "official by-the-book" advice is usually "shut up and admit nothing." But that's because what ATC will do it you bust airspace and cause a coflict is so very different than if you bust airspace at 3 am with the nearest other aircradt 150 NM away. And there was some case some years ago where the only evidence of who the pilot was was the pilot's admission, leading to the simplified "shut up, dive, and shut off the transponder" advice.

No, I wouldn't go into whole explantion with ATC on the radio either. It's not the right place. Im the air, it's far more important to correct (aviate and navigate) than to talk (communicate). And the talk should be generally limited to the typical acknoledgement of instruction.

btw, where iin Western Mass? I did my initial training at 7B2 and my instrument at 7B9.
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Did all my training at 7B2, and I'm a current instructor there too. Great little airport!
 
From the scenario in the OP, I can easily imagine the pilot realized he had a commiunications failure and remained (mostly) outside of Delta while working to resolve the problem. Upon deciding it is better resolved on the ground he landed at a nearby non-towered field. I've been in that situation a couple times (except I remained clear). The phone call is no big deal. Confess and be polite...which one should be anyway. As Mark mentioned, the problem comes when the pilot behaves like a jerk.
 
mshunter said:
YOU are responsible for making contact, no one else. Most of the time, you will be forgiven. But when I am on my way in to someones airspace, and the frequency is busy, I just switch. Or, if the frequency is dead, query BEFORE it becomes an issue. It's YOUR responsibility.
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Are you talking IFR or VFR or both?
 
XcalibeR said:
This probably belongs in the ATC forum, but what about cases of a late handoff from approach/center? I know that it depends on the airpsace, ie, some approach facilities must call/coordinate every aircraft, others never talk to them (OJC, MYF). I've been on many IFR arrivals where approach will have us descend into a D on the downwind vector or won't switch us over to tower until we're a mile or two deep in the D. I've never been very comfortable with this and will usually be proactive about it and call up on the #2 comm, or at least ask approach if they've coordinated the through-flight.
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Depends. ATC is supposed to coordinate. The ATC Handbook is very clear that the pilot is not responsible for switching when simply passing through the D but not as clear about when coming in to land at the D.

What you don't know in this scenario is whether there is a LOI between Tower and Approach for the coordination of the airspace.

I don't make the switch automatically but will make an inquiry or ask for the handoff if I feel uncomfortable.
 
During commercial training I was solo on a long cross country arriving into an area with which I was very familiar. Receiving VFR services with Center I was unable to get a word in while approaching Delta for landing. I switched the single comm radio to tower and they told me to get back to Center. I told them I cancelled FF in the blind ( and squawking 1200) since Center wasn't answering for several long minutes. (>5 minutes). TWR would not clear me until Center released me.

I turned away from the approach corridor and circled to remain clear of Delta while trying to contact Center. Finally I made contact to which Center said they had dropped services and even wondered why I wasn't on the ground yet. Now I was cleared to land. Delta had no radar. After shutdown I called the tower on the landline. They said they never got a handoff from Center. They also said I was to call Center.

I called Center and they said I should not have switched to TWR until Center advised. I explained the busy Center freq, the minutes of circling trying to contact Center, yada yada. We hung up with no resolution. I called TWR again and they admitted, yeah there are those who sometimes fall through the cracks.
 
XcalibeR said:
This probably belongs in the ATC forum, but what about cases of a late handoff from approach/center? I know that it depends on the airpsace, ie, some approach facilities must call/coordinate every aircraft, others never talk to them (OJC, MYF). I've been on many IFR arrivals where approach will have us descend into a D on the downwind vector or won't switch us over to tower until we're a mile or two deep in the D. I've never been very comfortable with this and will usually be proactive about it and call up on the #2 comm, or at least ask approach if they've coordinated the through-flight.
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Your only requirement is to be speaking with ATC. Approach/Center is ATC.
 
fholbert said:
You're only requirement is to be speaking with ATC. Approach/Center is ATC.
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And that's all well and good on an IFR flight. I've been on, and heard horror stories about, people getting flight following VFR and getting dumped into their destination's D airspace without approach letting tower know you're on your way. Two examples:

Approaching MYF from the north (have a look at the sectional if you've never been there), we had overflown Miramar, at which point approach told us to proceed direct to MYF and descend to 1500 ft, and told us "crossing the highway, contact tower." I had assumed that they had at least told tower we were coming. Imagine our surprise when we contacted tower, only to have them give about 4 traffic alerts and a very unenthusiastic "approach doesn't tell us anything". We didn't bust the D, since we had two way comms before/when we entered, but since there's only about a mile between the highway and the runway, approach had put us against crosswind leg at pattern altitude. Not a good place to be when you've just surprised tower.

I've heard a horror story about here at OJC, too. A guy was doing VFR practice approaches with flight following, and on their first one into OJC, approach didn't give them the switch until they were on a two mile final. The pilot got chewed out by tower, including threats of violation.

Finally, 91.129 says two way communication must be established "with the ATC facility providing air traffic services," which in the case of D is tower. I just like to cover my own butt when I can and contact them on a second radio. It's more difficult with a two person crew, because to do so I have to tell the radio man how to do his job, which is something they understandably don't approve of.
 
fholbert said:
No, ATC is ATC. If you talking to SoCal Approach and your route will go though Chino's class D it's NOT your job to call Chino tower.
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Jesus, please stop. You're absolutely wrong and will be violated pulling this stunt.
 
jhugz said:
Jesus, please stop. You're absolutely wrong and will be violated pulling this stunt.
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I cross though Chino's airspace all the time in and out of Corona talking only to SoCal. As a former ATC'er I can assure you I'm correct.
 
fholbert said:
I cross though Chino's airspace all the time in and out of Corona talking only to SoCal. As a former ATC'er I can assure you I'm correct.
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Do you turn off your transponder and dive into a canyon to make it happen also? You either need to hear cleared into "Chino's Class D" from the approach controller letting you know they coordinated it, or you need to be talking to tower. I don't know how it was done back in your day, or how Chino & SoCal do it, but I guarantee you this will not fly throughout the country. Believe me, I know and the Scottsdale FSDO knows. You will be violated.
 
XcalibeR said:
And that's all well and good on an IFR flight.
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IFR or VFR it's all the same.

XcalibeR said:
Approaching MYF from the north (have a look at the sectional if you've never been there), we had overflown Miramar,
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I do it often. I've never spoken with Miramar Tower. Last trip I checked in with MYF Tower on a 3 mile right base.

XcalibeR said:
Finally, 91.129 says two way communication must be established "with the ATC facility providing air traffic services," which in the case of D is tower.
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No, MYF Tower can't fart without asking approach control. Approach control is the controlling agency.
 
jhugz said:
Do you turn off your transponder and dive into a canyon to make it happen also? You either need to hear cleared into "Chino's Class D" from the approach controller letting you know they coordinated it, or you need to be talking to tower. I don't know how it was done back in your day, or how Chino & SoCal do it, but I guarantee you this will not fly throughout the country. Believe me, I know and the Scottsdale FSDO knows. You will be violated.
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Show me where it says you must hear cleared into "Chino's Class D". It doesn't. A lot of pilots mis-understand this.
 
fholbert said:
She me where it says you must hear cleared into "Chino's Class D". It doesn't. A lot of pilots mis-understand this.
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91.129 explains it pretty good.

Just for good measure. It's your responsibility.

AIM

3-2-1. General

d. VFR Requirements. It is the responsibility of
the pilot to insure that ATC clearance or radio
communication requirements are met prior to entry
into Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace. The pilot
retains this responsibility when receiving ATC radar
advisories. (See 14 CFR Part 91.)
 
An Example:

You ask for an ASR or PAR practice (or real) approach to a full stop at an airport inside Class D airspace.

When do you contact the local controller?

Answer: Never, your first contact with the tower will be ground control as you leave the runway.
 
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