Busting Class D Airspace

Joestructor

Joestructor

New Member
I was on a flight this afternoon departing out of a Class D airport. It was very busy, and as I was listening to the control frequency I could hear tower calling out to an unidentified aircraft demanding he identify himself. As I continued listening the aircraft did not identify and he was circling around the edge of the airspace busting it without talking to the Tower. During my climbout an aircraft called on the tower frequency telling the tower the aircraft had landed at a nearby airfield, and the tower responded "Yes sir I know, I am on the phone with him right now." Hearing that made me shutter. I can't imagine getting a phone call like that from a controller.

My question is, is busting class D airspace grounds to have your pilot license revoked? What sort of thing would you have to do (busting airspace wise) to lose your pilot certificate? Just wondering if anyone knows what the consequences are for something like this other than an earful from the controller.

Joe
 
Class D is weak especially if you brush the outside of the airspace, depending on the controller it will be a warning or will forward to the FAA. Regardless filling out a ASR will help protect you and your license from the angry swarm of bees.
 
Joestructor said:
My question is, is busting class D airspace grounds to have your pilot license revoked? What sort of thing would you have to do (busting airspace wise) to lose your pilot certificate? Just wondering if anyone knows what the consequences are for something like this other than an earful from the controller.

Joe
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Revocation? Grounds? Sure. Likely? No.

There's a range of the kinds of things that can happen, from a talking-to by ATC to a conversation with a FSDO Inspector to administrative action short of enforcement to enforcement action with suspension (and even ultimately revocation).

In a situation like you describe, it depends on the overall scenario with what was going on in the airspace (if it was busy with real or potential conflicts created, the serious of the action will increase) to the pilot's attitude when initially confronted.

ASRS may or may not help.

There's no one-size-fits-all answer.
 
If all he did was bust the edge of it, I don't see anything more than a slap on the wrist. You wouldn't imagine how many people bust the class D and sometimes even the class C thats near us. Usually they get a call from the tower and get scolded. This stuff is a lot more common than some people would assume. Not to change topics, but runway incursions too. There are so many weekend warriors out there who only fly a couple times a month. Even if they come to the airport multiple times, you wouldn't believe how many times I've heard controllers yell "STOP!" over the radio, because one of them was crossing over the hold short line of the runway. On a busy weekend I've heard it at least 4 or 5 times during a 6hr shift.
 
Tower - Aircraft busting my class D airspace identify yourself so I can violate your ass.

Aircraft - I can't navigate but I'm not that stupid... Out.
 
Joestructor said:
My question is, is busting class D airspace grounds to have your pilot license revoked?
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MidlifeFlyer gave a good answer. Let me just add that as an "example", the following is from FAA Order 2150.3B FAA Compliance and Enforcement Program:

Figure A-18. Sample Letter of Correction for Remedial Training.

October 16, 2005

File Number: 2006SW190079

Mr. John D. Smith:

This letter is in regard to your operation as pilot in command of a Cirrus aircraft, N57785, on September 5, 2005.

The aircraft was observed and identified as a Cirrus SR-22 aircraft, N57785, operating contrary to an air traffic clearance while under IFR in Class D airspace in the vicinity of the Fort Worth Meacham International Airport. You have been advised that, in the view of the FAA, such operation is contrary to 14 C.F.R. § 91.131(a)(1).

As a result of our discussion with you on September 23, 2005, you agreed to complete a program of remedial training as a substitute for legal enforcement action. You have submitted evidence showing satisfactory completion of two hours of ground instruction in: compliance with ATC clearances, programming and use of the GNS 430 navigation system for IFR operations, and use of the autopilot for IFR operations. In addition, you also completed one hour of flight instruction in compliance with IFR clearances, use of the GNS 430 navigation system and autopilot for IFR departures and arrivals, and timely response to undesired autopilot commands.

In closing this case, we have considered all available facts and concluded that, based on your satisfactory completion of the remedial training program, legal enforcement action will not be pursued. In place of such action, we are issuing this letter that will be made a matter of record for a period of two years, after which the record of this matter will be expunged. This letter constitutes neither an admission nor an adjudication of a violation.

We appreciate your cooperation in this matter and expect your full compliance with the regulations in the future.

Sincerely,

John L. Doe
Aviation Safety Inspector
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The Order elaborates on why the remedial training would be appropriate in lieu of an enforcement action and what the inspector is to do if the remedial training is or is not completed.

From a common sense standpoint, if a person makes an honest mistake due to a lack of training, then more training is the best way to ensure the act is not repeated. On the other hand, as the Order indicates, if the act was done willfully or there was a history of such violations, then an enforcement would be more appropriate than remedial training.

As a practical matter, this is all dependant upon the air traffic controller passing the information on to flight standards for investigation and action.
 
A friend of mine... (everyone understand?)

He busted the March class C and not just a little. After realizing what he did he flew into a heavily traveled canyon below radar coverage. Turned off his transponder, made a 180 turn and slowed 40 knots before exiting the canyon. He then landed at Corona, an uncontrolled airport.

His passenger thought they were flying down the canyon to look at the Martin Mars tanker sitting in Lake Elsinore.

Sometimes it's not how screwed up you get. It's all about the recovery.

vzaagj.jpg
 
Mark815 said:
If all he did was bust the edge of it, I don't see anything more than a slap on the wrist. You wouldn't imagine how many people bust the class D and sometimes even the class C thats near us. Usually they get a call from the tower and get scolded. This stuff is a lot more common than some people would assume. Not to change topics, but runway incursions too. There are so many weekend warriors out there who only fly a couple times a month. Even if they come to the airport multiple times, you wouldn't believe how many times I've heard controllers yell "STOP!" over the radio, because one of them was crossing over the hold short line of the runway. On a busy weekend I've heard it at least 4 or 5 times during a 6hr shift.
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The other day I heard a Navy helicopter being told to "back up about 50 feet." He was then reminded what those yellow lines mean.

I was laughing so hard I just about couldn't read back my takeoff clearance.
 
fholbert said:
A friend of mine... (everyone understand?)

He busted the March class C and not just a little. After realizing what he did he flew into a heavily traveled canyon below radar coverage. Turned off his transponder, made a 180 turn and slowed 40 knots before exiting the canyon. He then landed at Corona, an uncontrolled airport.

His passenger thought they were flying down the canyon to look at the Martin Mars tanker sitting in Lake Elsinore.

Sometimes it's not how screwed up you get. It's all about the recovery.
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I had an instructor tell me to do this when I was getting my private if I ever busted class B.

"Turn off your transponder, dive for the deck and head for the nearest un-controled field."

Thankfully, I have never had to use it.
 
Mark815 said:
If all he did was bust the edge of it, I don't see anything more than a slap on the wrist.
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I know a guy where it went as far as him receiving a letter of investigation from the FSDO for busting the edge - and it turned out he didn't even do that.
 
I had a class D tower call me (a class B approach controller) up about an aircraft busting right through their class D. They couldn't get a good look at the N number and just wanted to have them call up to basically say, "hey don't do that please." I put a tag on the aircraft and as it climbs above my sector I pass it on to the high sector guy. The aircraft calls him for flight following out of the blue. He botches the call sign read back and says squawk XXXX and I've got a number for XYZ airport when you're ready to copy. She doesn't respond, flustered I assume she climbs, busts our B, then decides to skim the dirt, forgetting to turn off the xponder busts a second D who gets eyes on the N number. She proceeds to an adjacent class C and lands at their primary airport.

Most of the time its a warning, but as in the above it can be easy to make things far worse on yourself.
 
If I ever made an accidental mistake, I don't think I would do anything like "diving for the deck" and turning off the xponder. I would rather admit my mistake to ATC, and hope for the best. I'm sure ATC would be much more lenient if you just admit your mistake and comply with what they ask you to do. It sounds like running from ATC is a lot like running from the cops... just plain stupid.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
I know a guy where it went as far as him receiving a letter of investigation from the FSDO for busting the edge - and it turned out he didn't even do that.
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Yeah see now that sucks!

Joestructor said:
If I ever made an accidental mistake, I don't think I would do anything like "diving for the deck" and turning off the xponder. I would rather admit my mistake to ATC, and hope for the best. I'm sure ATC would be much more lenient if you just admit your mistake and comply with what they ask you to do. It sounds like running from ATC is a lot like running from the cops... just plain stupid.
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I disagree. Remember, EVERYTHING is recorded and can be used against you. Chances are, if ATC doesn't mention it, neither should you, because that just puts them into a position where now they HAVE to say something about it. I def don't think I would do the 'dive for the deck and kill the xponder' but I wouldn't just come out over the radio and say 'sorry I violated xyz, I'll be more careful next time'.
 
Having a non-communicating aircraft shut down their transponder in the middle of my surface area is pretty infuriating. I go from having an idea of where the plane is, to azimuth information only. This turns my traffic calls for conflicting aircraft into nearly worthless advisories. Bonus points if they truck along through final or the departure corridor with landing and arriving traffic in the way. I get the whole "fight the man" mentality, but don't be stupid. Just call up the controlling facility and let us know what your intentions are. This doesn't have to be an admission of guilt on frequency. Maybe ATC will say something, maybe they won't, but it's the pilot's fault so own up to it.

I've seen many violators make uneventful passages through the airspace after contacting ATC. I've seen just as many wannabe stealth aircraft get their primary targets tracked to whatever adjacent field they're headed to (it's always somewhere close to the primary airport). I understand a pilot doesn't want to have to do any paperwork (over a mistake they made, by the way) but what if there's a traffic conflict? What if you really really get in someone's way? Remember, the transponder has been shut off so there's no more altitude information to use when trying to tell other airplanes about this dunce flying through their approach path. I can't guarantee ATC won't file a deviation in every situation, far from it, but aren't there self reporting procedures in place that protect pilots from repercussion?
 
Mark815 said:
Yeah see now that sucks!



I disagree. Remember, EVERYTHING is recorded and can be used against you. Chances are, if ATC doesn't mention it, neither should you, because that just puts them into a position where now they HAVE to say something about it. I def don't think I would do the 'dive for the deck and kill the xponder' but I wouldn't just come out over the radio and say 'sorry I violated xyz, I'll be more careful next time'.
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We're in a serious "it depends" area. The "official by-the-book" advice is usually "shut up and admit nothing." But that's because what ATC will do it you bust airspace and cause a coflict is so very different than if you bust airspace at 3 am with the nearest other aircradt 150 NM away. And there was some case some years ago where the only evidence of who the pilot was was the pilot's admission, leading to the simplified "shut up, dive, and shut off the transponder" advice.

No, I wouldn't go into whole explantion with ATC on the radio either. It's not the right place. Im the air, it's far more important to correct (aviate and navigate) than to talk (communicate). And the talk should be generally limited to the typical acknoledgement of instruction.

btw, where iin Western Mass? I did my initial training at 7B2 and my instrument at 7B9.
 
For clipping Class D you will be asked to call them - you apologize, they tell you to be more careful, you thank them and you are more careful next time. Never happened to me but in Socal people clip LGB, FUL all the time.
 
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