Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordings

[Minuteman]

Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordings
By ANDY PASZTOR

The Feb. 12 fatal crash of Continental Connection Flight 3407 has sparked a novel labor-management dispute over appropriate uses of an essential safety tool: cockpit voice recordings.

Colgan Air Inc., which operated the flight, is proposing to download and analyze random cockpit recordings in the future as a means of enhancing safety and enforcing cockpit discipline. The union representing Colgan's roughly 480 pilots is dead set against it.
...
Colgan's management has approached local leaders of the Air Line Pilots Association, the largest U.S. pilot union, with the proposition that such spot checks of cockpit behavior would help supplement and improve existing safety initiatives. ALPA's leadership has responded with a resounding "no."

Not a single U.S. airline is believed to sample cockpit recordings in this fashion, and even general discussion of such a step is considered anathema by the pilot union. Pilots contend it would violate their privacy and demonstrate management's lack of trust in their professionalism. Individual pilots at Colgan and other carriers have criticized the airline's proposal, but so far ALPA leaders haven't made a public stink. An ALPA spokeswoman in Washington, D.C., decline to comment.

On Sunday, Colgan spokesman Joe Williams confirmed in an email that the carrier has proposed that recordings "be monitored for safety purposes by selected union and company pilots." He said the company believes such a step is the most effective way to obtain "an accurate view of pilot performance." Colgan believes the cockpit recordings "could become great accident prevention tools," he said

Roger Cohen, president of the Regional Airline Association, said Colgan's concept is the natural evolution of current safety practices. "If we are identifying cockpit discipline" as an important safety factor and "there is a random, non-punitive way" to sample data, according to Mr. Cohen, "why wouldn't we at least begin talking" about broader uses of cockpit recorders?
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Do not like! I'm glad you guys got a union.

The article pretty much covers my thoughts on the issue: there will be much more erasing, voluntary disclosures may decrease, and this is a large effort to address one specific topic (with an arguably subjective metric).

I hope ALPA will be all over this and stresses the importance of adhering to SOPs and encouraging ASAP reports of deviations.

Why would Colgan think listening to CVRs will yield better results than other, more common and widely-used methods of measuring operational performance?

 

[Cessnaflyer]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

This is one CVR use I don't agree with. It would be to the same effect of getting an FAA examiner on all my instructional flights.

 

[mshunter]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

Niether agree or disagree with this one, "I have no comment." My question is, why is everyone so against this. Is their stuff going on in the cockpit that pilots don't want management to know about? Just curious why ALPA and Colgan pilots are against it.

Are you afriad of being terminated? Are you not adhearing to company policy? The only reason I can see is because there is something to hide. I am an outsider looking in, so I don't really know. This is not flamebait, it's an honest to goodness question. Educate me.

 

[MQAAord]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

To people who think this is okay: Would you want all levels of management above you listening to everything you said at work? Would you wear a wiretap and have every word you say recorded with the possibility of management listening to it at any time.

If this goes through, it will decrease safety, because people will NOT talk as much, out of fear/paranoia that the company is "out to get them". It will put a damper on communication. The CVR is there, and can be pulled when there's a reason, I do NOT feel that random downloading could possibly accomplish anything good.

There is already a tool in place for observation of pilots: Checkrides! Also, professional standards deals with issues of non-professionalism & safety.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

Niether agree or disagree with this one, "I have no comment." My question is, why is everyone so against this. Is their stuff going on in the cockpit that pilots don't want management to know about? Just curious why ALPA and Colgan pilots are against it.

Are you afriad of being terminated? Are you not adhearing to company policy? The only reason I can see is because there is something to hide. I am an outsider looking in, so I don't really know. This is not flamebait, it's an honest to goodness question. Educate me.

I am not sure how strict they would be while they listened in to the CVR. I would be worried if you did one thing out of order on the checklist by mistake and it could be grounds for termination. One little oops moment and your canned for any job seems like it could be a little unfair.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

MQAA nailed it in one. This is how it starts. "For the children!" Pretty soon you're in doing a rug dance every time you say something unflattering about whatever management stooge is running the show this week. Bad, bad mojo.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

This is one CVR use I don't agree with. It would be to the same effect of getting an FAA examiner on all my instructional flights.

I think you would see booming sales of sign language books at the airports...

 

[stuckingfk]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

There is already a tool in place for observation of pilots: Checkrides! Also, professional standards deals with issues of non-professionalism & safety.

How many checkrides have you taken for flying, one?

I know you didn't act the same way in the airplane with the DE as you would with an instructor or friend. I'm sorry, but I don't buy your "checkrides are a tool to observe pilots" theory. People act so much different on rides than in a normal setting.

Your theory might have helped in the Colgan case. Five failed checkrides and he still has a job? Unreal.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

I'm not in any way involved with 121 flying, but even I think not just no, but EFF NO. Hopefully ALPA wins out on this one.

 

[MQAAord]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

How many checkrides have you taken for flying, one?

I know you didn't act the same way in the airplane with the DE as you would with an instructor or friend. I'm sorry, but I don't buy your "checkrides are a tool to observe pilots" theory. People act so much different on rides than in a normal setting.

Your theory might have helped in the Colgan case. Five failed checkrides and he still has a job? Unreal.

Exactly. So if Colgan says they need this tool to prevent accidents like this, but in this case checkrides WERE done, then my theory of checkrides is true.

I've had far more than 1 checkride in my airline days.... I was at AMR for 7 years. I had checkrides, I gave checkrides.

I would hope that airlines, in their hiring process, would do their best to hire quality people that they could trust with their equipment. Background checks, personal reference checks, employment history, etc all give a small peek into a person's trustability (if that's a word).

Also, let's not forget the mechanism of pilot write-ups of other pilots. One DL F/O, in particular, was getting written up a lot for his inconsistency and non-adhesion to company procedure. He was line-checked, did these non-consistent things during a checkride. His actions were addressed, a bit of remedial training, and the guy was back out on the line and no more write-ups occurred after that. Someone who gets written up a lot attracts the radar of management, and things will get addressed.

Basically I'm just saying there are other ways of dealing with someone who doesn't "follow company procedure" that do not require the random downloading of the CVR.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

Punitive surveillance is totally UnAmerican. I can't even believe we're seriously having a discussion about this. This is the stuff we were told we fought the cold war over, but now we're doing it, too? And please, spare me the "if you have nothing to hide..." nonsense. Paperz, please!

 

[Lee D]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

I think it could become a very slippery slope if allowed.

 

[gne in prog]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

Just curious why ALPA and Colgan pilots are against it.

Are you afriad of being terminated? Are you not adhearing to company policy? The only reason I can see is because there is something to hide. I am an outsider looking in, so I don't really know. This is not flamebait, it's an honest to goodness question. Educate me.

here are the two main reasons-

I would be worried if you did one thing out of order on the checklist by mistake and it could be grounds for termination. One little oops moment and your canned for any job seems like it could be a little unfair.

Pretty soon you're in doing a rug dance every time you say something unflattering about whatever management stooge is running the show this week. Bad, bad mojo.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

I have a very long response to this topic, but I need to find a computer to address it. The iPhone simply won't work.

Very, very bad idea.

 

[stuckingfk]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

Exactly. So if Colgan says they need this tool to prevent accidents like this, but in this case checkrides WERE done, then my theory of checkrides is true.

I've had far more than 1 checkride in my airline days.... I was at AMR for 7 years. I had checkrides, I gave checkrides.

I'm talking pilot checkrides....not F/A checkrides. Whole different ball of wax.

How much money did you spend getting your FA certs? As much as a pilot, no so it is hard to compare the two.

Reason why your theory wouldn't work, no pilot group or union is going to allow firings happen at the drop of a hat. Should some happen? Of course. But nobody, not the pilots nor the company, want admit to themselves that they hired a bad seed. We are in fact our own worst enemy in regards to safety.

Yes, there are things like rest requirements that need to be addressed, but there are many things we as pilots control. Taking red eyes to work, commuting in general, doing standups/illegals/constant duty overnights, ect.

 

[MQAAord]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

I'm talking pilot checkrides....not F/A checkrides. Whole different ball of wax.

How much money did you spend getting your FA certs? As much as a pilot, no so it is hard to compare the two.

Reason why your theory wouldn't work, no pilot group or union is going to allow firings happen at the drop of a hat. Should some happen, of course, but nobody, not the pilots or company want admit to themselves that they hired a bad seed. We are in fact our own worse enemy in regards to safety.

Yes, there things like rest requirements that need to be addressed, but there are many things we as pilots control. Taking red eyes to work, commuting in general, doing standups/illegals/constant duty overnights, ect.

Yap. Having worked 121 for 7 years, working in the training department... even teaching CRM (to combined classes) I have no credibility in discussing pilot issues.. I couldn't possibly comprehend what a pilot checkride is like.

I've made my points here about this topic, and I have the experience and credibility to have a basis for my opinions.

edit: You'll notice I didn't say others don't have a right to their opinion. They do. I will not attack, throw names, or anything else at someone who's opinion differs from mine. But please don't try to discredit my experience.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

I don't fly 121, so maybe I should let the people who do do the talkin (I said "do do").

But your profile suggests that you fly corporate. I'd venture to say MQAA has more to say about it than either of us.

Regardless, you'd need a gun to get me in a cockpit where every word I say is potentially "actionable". Surveillance society? No thanks, I'll be in the hills with an AK and a bunker full of canned goods. Wooooolllvveeerrrrinesss!

 

[jhugz]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

Exactly. So if Colgan says they need this tool to prevent accidents like this, but in this case checkrides WERE done, then my theory of checkrides is true.

I've had far more than 1 checkride in my airline days.... I was at AMR for 7 years. I had checkrides, I gave checkrides.

I would hope that airlines, in their hiring process, would do their best to hire quality people that they could trust with their equipment. Background checks, personal reference checks, employment history, etc all give a small peek into a person's trustability (if that's a word).

Also, let's not forget the mechanism of pilot write-ups of other pilots. One DL F/O, in particular, was getting written up a lot for his inconsistency and non-adhesion to company procedure. He was line-checked, did these non-consistent things during a checkride. His actions were addressed, a bit of remedial training, and the guy was back out on the line and no more write-ups occurred after that. Someone who gets written up a lot attracts the radar of management, and things will get addressed.

Basically I'm just saying there are other ways of dealing with someone who doesn't "follow company procedure" that do not require the random downloading of the CVR.

F/A check-rides & ground-school is a joke compared to the pilot side of things. It in no way compares to flying an airplane day in and day out. F/A's service drinks 99% of the time while all their training is handling abnormal and emergency situations. 8 months after my initial training do I remember the exact commands and isle block techniques. Nah not really but I am sure I probably could safely get everyone out. Very rarely do we have a Chief FA ride a long with us and it actually never happened to me while I was there.

In regards to the original post I am kinda split. If they only monitored information during sterile phases of flight I am OK with that. You should hold a certain demeanor and attitude during that phase of flight. If they are monitoring the tapes during cruise flight when you are shooting the poo and complaining about block times and work rules then they can GTFO.

 

[stuckingfk]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

Yap. Having worked 121 for 7 years, working in the training department... even teaching CRM (to combined classes) I have no credibility in discussing pilot issues.. I couldn't possibly comprehend what a pilot checkride is like.

I've made my points here about this topic, and I have the experience and credibility to have a basis for my opinions.

edit: You'll notice I didn't say others don't have a right to their opinion. They do. I will not attack, throw names, or anything else at someone who's opinion differs from mine. But please don't try to discredit my experience.

haha

Nice try to talk down on me...haha

I'm not discrediting your experience as a FA, but comparing FAs to Pilots is like comparing apples to oranges.

But if I did my job with the same quality as some of our FAs do, everyone on the plane would be dead.

Bottom line: Pilots have much more invested in our career than a FA does.

 

[MQAAord]

Re: Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordin

F/A check-rides & ground-school is a joke compared to the pilot side of things. It in no way compares to flying an airplane day in and day out. F/A's service drinks 99% of the time while all their training is handling abnormal and emergency situations. 8 months after my initial training do I remember the exact commands and isle block techniques. Nah not really but I am sure I probably could safely get everyone out. Very rarely do we have a Chief FA ride a long with us and it actually never happened to me while I was there.

At AMR most F/A checkrides are "ghost rides", where the pilots (and even the F/As!) have no idea the checkride is going on.

We're getting more than a bit off-topic with bickering about F/As vs. pilots checkrides, doncha think? OF COURSE PILOTS AND FLIGHT ATTENDANTS HAVE DIFFERENT JOBS and different job duties, and the checkrides themselves will be comprised of different things. Good golly. Nobody's debating that.