Boyd Consulting on the "Passenger Bill of Rights" Witch Hunt.

[Cheechako]

What really upsets me about these situations is, like the article says, bad reporting. People are so quick to jump to conclusions over issues and don't look at the big pictures. "Oh, how could Jetblue be so lazy/irresponsible/corrupt/inept/lousy as to just trap people on the tarmac for 8 hours. Why didn't they just pull them back in the gate?" Hmmm.. do you think they would have thought about that? Reporters who have a degree in journalism and may me wizards with their powermacs and eloquent writing have no idea how an airline is run or what has to go on just to "pull the airplane back into the gate." They want the scoop and will, as the article says, "file the story first and research the facts later."

This Passenger Bill of Rights will not be good. In the end it will cost the flying public more. The airlines will have to up the fares to cover the costs of hiring more people, lawsuit protection, more gates, equipment, etc.

 

[surreal1221]

JBU CEO said they spent 30 million last week in refunds and other incentives to passengers that were involved in the whole debacle.

From what I understand, they have had an issue with having enough crews for their flights. Perhaps that 30 million could have been spent better (crew pay, for more crews, etc).

But hey, whatever. . . just another LCC screwing things up right?

 

[Old Pete]

I jumpseated home on another carrier other than Southernjets but they're a close relative.

Anyway, they were bought off about 4 people with $500 Southernjets "credits" because the flight was WAY oversold. I finally go down to get on the jumpseat and there were about six empty seats in back.

Not knowing exactly who is on the airline is a security risk and a safety hazard.

If you think you have 147 pax on board, then you have an evacuation and you've only counted 140 pax, you're going to be mighty pissed when you go back into a smoking hulk of airplane looking for a seven pax that weren't even onboard.

I really don't have a problem with a $25 change fee. The airline is a business, not a government service. The only reason for the $25 charge is that it generates additional revenue.

This is a perfect example of an airline being penny wise and pound foolish. There have been several times when I have had a reservation for a flight that was full or overbooked and I have arrived early enough to catch an earlier flight that was only half full. If the airline tried to charge me $25 I would have waited for the overbooked flight and taken one of those $500 coupons they were going to have to offer someone.

 

[derg]

But remember those are $500 coupons that you have to spend with that airline, and the ticket might cost $500 + $25 + X that you may be only able to use on certain flights/times/dates.

They don't really lose anything, but peple generally think that they're getting something for nothing when they get them.

 

[staplegun]

Yeh - except it's wrong. If the airlines would self-regulate on these issues, like they promise to every time there is one of these incidents, then they wouldn't have the problems they have. The problem is they lie and say they'll do better - and then they don't.

If there had been a financial motivation to get the Austin AAL people off the plane or to get the JetBlue people off the plane they'd have been got off. They might not have been any happier, in the big scheme of things it's not going to save the world of aviation - but nobody can tell me it takes 10 hours to figure out how to get passengers off a plane OR that companies won't think twice about pushing a plane if they know that in, say, 4 hours they'll have to figure out how to get them off.

It'll be interesting - the airlines will fight this tooth and nail, as usual, but I wonder if this time they're going to get nailed. They won't like the result, the consumer won't like the result, but they brought in on themselves - if you don't want the government involved you have to do enough not to provoke them - this time I think they missed the margin.

Just curious, did you even read the Boyd piece?



Kevin

 

[tonyw]

If the airline tried to charge me $25 I would have waited for the overbooked flight and taken one of those $500 coupons they were going to have to offer someone.

And they still get more out of that than they would if they let you on without paying the fee.

If you get the $500 coupon, you get a free seat and you're on the bottom of the priority list. Nothing changes.

But if they collect $25 from you, they're $25 ahead of the game.

You paid for a seat which was nonrefundable and for which there is a penalty for changing flights. I don't understand why you're complaining that they actually enforced the conditions to which you agreed.

You get what you pay for. If you want to get a ticket where you can change the flight without a penalty, buy one.

 

[flyover]

You get what you pay for.

Customers who "get what they pay for" are at best indifferent with no brand loyalty. Exceed their expectations and you have a happy, loyal customer. That's why the fees are stupid. Every business that manages to make their customers feel like they got more than they paid for will be in business for a very long time.

 

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Customers who "get what they pay for" are at best indifferent with no brand loyalty. Exceed their expectations and you have a happy, loyal customer. That's why the fees are stupid. Every business that manages to make their customers feel like they got more than they paid for will be in business for a very long time.

**dingdingding**

I won't fly NWA anymore unless it is the only reasonable option available. Stupid nickle-and-dime BS like those fees is a large part of the reason why. The result? NWA has lost literally tens of thousands of dollars in ticket revenue which I have instead directed to other carriers who have not taken out their financial problems on their passengers and staff.

 

[Old Pete]

And they still get more out of that than they would if they let you on without paying the fee.

If you get the $500 coupon, you get a free seat and you're on the bottom of the priority list. Nothing changes.

But if they collect $25 from you, they're $25 ahead of the game.

You paid for a seat which was nonrefundable and for which there is a penalty for changing flights. I don't understand why you're complaining that they actually enforced the conditions to which you agreed.

You get what you pay for. If you want to get a ticket where you can change the flight without a penalty, buy one.

I don't think you understand my point at all. First of all, I am not complaining, I am expressing my bewilderment of a particular airline policy.

If I have a ticket for a flight that is overbooked and everyone shows up, that's the airline's problem, not mine. If I agree to take another flight, I am doing them a favor, not the other way around.

Typically, if you're on an overbooked flight and you take their offer, they put you on the next available flight, AND give you a coupon/voucher for another flight. When the overbooked flight is the last one of the day, I have seen offers of meal and hotel vouchers and two free tickets. Obviously, the airline would like to avoid that, and if they had empty seats on an earlier flight, it would be foolish not to try to fill them from an overbooked flight.

 

[kellwolf]

Actually, they have no guarantees that everyone is going to show up, so they don't know if they're gonna have to deny boarding or not until everyone checks in. So, by saying "sure you can take the earlier flight," they may, in fact, simply be losing money if not everyone shows up for the flight.

Now on the vouchers, like Doug said, it looks like you're getting a steal, but it doesn't really cost them a whole lot of $$$. There are restrictions on the "free ticket" most of the time, so they're more or less giving you a seat that would have been empty anyway. The meal vouchers generally aren't much and it's through an agreement with airport food vendors. In fact, it's possible those food vouchers could even be tax write offs for the airline depending on how they're written out. The hotels are at a dirt cheap, negotiated rate as well. Probably not much more than the $25 you'd be giving them to take the earlier flight.

All in all, it's a better bet for them to gamble on an oversold flight. Best case scenario for them, the flight goes out full and no one gets denied boarding. They make money. Worst case, they're out about $40 a passenger that volunteers and they make a little less money.

 

[Old Pete]

Actually, they have no guarantees that everyone is going to show up, so they don't know if they're gonna have to deny boarding or not until everyone checks in. So, by saying "sure you can take the earlier flight," they may, in fact, simply be losing money if not everyone shows up for the flight.

You're absolutely right that they have no incentive to put you on an earlier flight if the flight that you are on is not close to being full. And by charging $25 they may be able to make a few extra bucks.

 

[tonyw]

And by charging $25 they may be able to make a few extra bucks.

And that is what they are in business for.

I don't understand the mentality of those wanting to get something more than they paid for. Try this. Go to Macy's, buy some shoes, and tell them you want the socks for free. Think you'll get them?

No? Then why do people say, hey, even though the tickets I bought have a penalty for changing my intinerary, I'm going to be pissed if they don't let me do it for free?

 

[CFIscare]

Another way to look at it is this situation.

Suppose Flight 1 departs at 5 pm. There is always a great demand for this flight so the prices are generally more expensive. Well, Passenger Joe reallly wants that flight but can't afford to take it. However, he can afford Flight 2, which leaves at 8 pm, and is always empty...hence the cheaper ticket. So he shows up at 4 to see if he can take flight 1.

Should he be allowed to cheat the system like that?

 

[kellwolf]

You're absolutely right that they have no incentive to put you on an earlier flight if the flight that you are on is not close to being full. And by charging $25 they may be able to make a few extra bucks.

My point wasn't using a flight that isn't full. Even if you ARE on an oversold flight, there's no guarantee that everyone will show. So, if they waive the $25 fee and not everyone shows up, they just lost money. Airlines, most of them at least, are publicly owned companies. That kinda thinking doesn't generally sit well with shareholders. Like Tony said, they're in the business to make money, not play nice with everyone. Think a movie theatre is gonna let you in to a 6 o'clock show for free if you bought a ticket to a 8 PM packed house? No, they make you buy another ticket, but no one ever complains about that.....

 

[kellwolf]

Another way to look at it is this situation.

Suppose Flight 1 departs at 5 pm. There is always a great demand for this flight so the prices are generally more expensive. Well, Passenger Joe reallly wants that flight but can't afford to take it. However, he can afford Flight 2, which leaves at 8 pm, and is always empty...hence the cheaper ticket. So he shows up at 4 to see if he can take flight 1.

Should he be allowed to cheat the system like that?

Depends on what you call "cheating the system." If he's on strandby and makes the flight, I'd say he got lucky. But, if he plans on doing it, he should know the airline's policy on changing flights. I think the fees are in place to keep exactly this from happening on every flight. Most passengers know darn good and well airlines charge a fee to change their ticket, but that doesn't stop them from getting up in arms when the policy is actually enforced. I've had people darn near tear my head off when I told them either that or they had to pay an overweight fee on their bag. "They didn't charge me at the last place! This is crazy." "Ma'am, I see in your reservation that you DID have an overweight bag in IAH, and they DID charge you the fee." "Uh.......here's my Visa card."

The problem with a majority of the flying public is they expect stellar service and features at rock bottom prices. They want to pay $100 and be able to say "I want to leave at this time, I want to carry as much as I can handle and I want to be 20 minutes early.....Oh, and I want food and don't want to fly on a little airplane." Sorry, but in the airline industry, you often get what you pay for. If you want a round trip for rock bottom prices, you're gonna get rock bottom features. You can't go to a car lot and buy a Mercedes for the price of a Hyundai, but people expect this in the airline industry all the time. If you don't know what time you're going to be able to leave, buy a ticket without the change fee restriction. Believe it or not, they DO exist.

 

[CFIscare]

Depends on what you call "cheating the system." If he's on strandby and makes the flight, I'd say he got lucky. But, if he plans on doing it, he should know the airline's policy on changing flights. I think the fees are in place to keep exactly this from happening on every flight. Most passengers know darn good and well airlines charge a fee to change their ticket, but that doesn't stop them from getting up in arms when the policy is actually enforced. I've had people darn near tear my head off when I told them either that or they had to pay an overweight fee on their bag. "They didn't charge me at the last place! This is crazy." "Ma'am, I see in your reservation that you DID have an overweight bag in IAH, and they DID charge you the fee." "Uh.......here's my Visa card."

The problem with a majority of the flying public is they expect stellar service and features at rock bottom prices. They want to pay $100 and be able to say "I want to leave at this time, I want to carry as much as I can handle and I want to be 20 minutes early.....Oh, and I want food and don't want to fly on a little airplane." Sorry, but in the airline industry, you often get what you pay for. If you want a round trip for rock bottom prices, you're gonna get rock bottom features. You can't go to a car lot and buy a Mercedes for the price of a Hyundai, but people expect this in the airline industry all the time. If you don't know what time you're going to be able to leave, buy a ticket without the change fee restriction. Believe it or not, they DO exist.

:yeahthat:

I know this is just false hope, but people need to realize that airlines are a business, not a government service. Airlines aren't school busses. Rules have to be made. Money has to be made. Back when ticket prices where higher, airlines had the ability to provide freebies. "Whats that, the weather canceled your flight? Not a problem, stay at a hotel and eat a nice dinner on us." Long gone are those days. People demanded cheaper prices, and they got them. They just need to wake up and realize what they gave up for those "fun fares."

 

[flyover]

People demanded cheaper prices, and they got them. They just need to wake up and realize what they gave up for those "fun fares."

I do not understand the "blame the customer" message that shows up here so often.

Customers didn't dream up the fares, the airlines did. And they did it (and continue to do it) to maximise revenue.

 

[flyover]

I don't understand the mentality of those wanting to get something more than they paid for.

Clearly you don't. The idea is not so much that people want more than they paid for, it's that smart businesses try to exceed their customer's expectations so they feel very satisfied and want to repeat the experience. This is about as 101 as you can get.

I find it very hard to believe that you don't value shop.

Try this. Go to Macy's, buy some shoes, and tell them you want the socks for free. Think you'll get them?

No, but if Macy offers them and my wife thinks it's a great deal, I'll come home and find some new shoes and socks on the table.

No? Then why do people say, hey, even though the tickets I bought have a penalty for changing my intinerary, I'm going to be pissed if they don't let me do it for free?

Because people don't read the fine print, and any company that has it's reps spending much time saying "You should have read the fine print" is clearly not a service-oriented company. And people understand this is a no-cost no-brainer service that a company can do for it's customers.

I worked for the airlines when they gladly moved passengers to earlier flights. It was a simple service that made for happy customers and changing that policy was a mistake.

 

[derg]

I understand what you're saying, but the situation is a self-fulfilling prophecy because people want to pay next to nothing for air travel but demand a higher level of performance.

Reading thru the last attempt at a PBOR, some of the requirements were laughable because they would have been impossible to adhere to.

Either we re-regulate and then impose a PBOR or we can have business as usual with some basic level of caveat emptor.

This might be jaded 8am in the morning groggy Doug, but this is another airline witch hunt.

The $25 ticket change isn't bad.

I can't buy a ticket for a baseball game on friday and then show up at the ballpark on thursday and demand a seat.

Additionally, if had front row tickets for the Nine Inch Nails concert tonight but got caught in traffic and missed the concert, could I demand that Ticketmaster refund my money or get me a ticket at another sold out concert? I could ask...

Not that I want the airline industry to shift this way, but if people are grasping for the glory days of commercial aviation, they're going to have to pay more to support the system.

 

[flyover]

I guess the word I don't really understand is "demand". In 30 years of passenger flying I ran into very few people that "demanded" anything. If airlines lower fares, people respond and fit more flying into their budget. Is that "demanding" low fares? I guess.

The truth is the airlines can do anything they want to their customers and rationalize it in any way they want to. But any smart business will make it easy for their customers to be customers.

I was listening to some New York City based radio yesterday. People kept calling up to say they were loyal to Jet Blue and would give them aother chance. That's what good service buys you, not "demanding" customers, loyal ones.