Behind the Southwest Airlines Culture

Take my previous engineering firm. Walking in as a brand new 22 yr old engineer I couldn't demand nor get what a 15 yr senior engineer made. However, I made more than most 22 y olds due to the job field. I negotiated what was important for me and then closed the deal. If an airline wants to set up a DEC scheme and collect 100 grand from a pilot, they could do that. However, insurance requirements for flight experience still need to be met. Funny thing, my firm never hired pay-to-play engineers. Why? They needed competent engineers to get the job done with an emphasis on quality and safety.

Sounds like a great place. Why'd you leave? Serious question. Was there something there that you didn't like?

They kicked ALPA out and got out of the Nicolau award.

Not so fast there. It may still come back to bite them in their new SLI. Remember, LCC management accepted the Nic as the SL. As far as they're concerned, that's the list.
 
Seniority does protect the weak. Colgan's 3407 CA made it that night in his position because the seniority system allowed him to be here. Anyway, I'd change it to a private sector business. Take my previous engineering firm. Walking in as a brand new 22 yr old engineer I couldn't demand nor get what a 15 yr senior engineer made. However, I made more than most 22 y olds due to the job field. I negotiated what was important for me and then closed the deal. If an airline wants to set up a DEC scheme and collect 100 grand from a pilot, they could do that. However, insurance requirements for flight experience still need to be met. Funny thing, my firm never hired pay-to-play engineers. Why? They needed competent engineers to get the job done with an emphasis on quality and safety.

As for binding, ask the US Airways guys. Binding is binding only until you find the loophole. In their case, the list was effective with a joined contract an as ALPA as their representing agent. They kicked ALPA out and got out of the Nicolau award.
Airlines are private sector.

Non-union doesn't necessarily get rid of the week. If it serves our bottom line and management is reasonably sure the other pilot will keep the airplane from coming out of the sky, that person isn't going anywhere.
 
Seniority does protect the weak. Colgan's 3407 CA made it that night in his position because the seniority system allowed him to be here.

Once again you are wrong. Poor hiring practices, poor training, poor mentoring processes, poor staffing allowed that Captain to be there. The company had more than ample chances to correct any weakness they may have saw in the Captain. They didn't.

Anyway, I'd change it to a private sector business. Take my previous engineering firm. Walking in as a brand new 22 yr old engineer I couldn't demand nor get what a 15 yr senior engineer made. However, I made more than most 22 y olds due to the job field. I negotiated what was important for me and then closed the deal.

Then why don't you negotiate what is important for you in your current job?

If an airline wants to set up a DEC scheme and collect 100 grand from a pilot, they could do that. However, insurance requirements for flight experience still need to be met.

Wrong again! Look at the DEC scheme in Europe and Asia. Folks are having no problems paying money and being put in the seats of airliners.

Funny thing, my firm never hired pay-to-play engineers. Why? They needed competent engineers to get the job done with an emphasis on quality and safety.

When people are willing to go to places like Jet U airlines have more leverage than an engineering firm.

As for binding, ask the US Airways guys. Binding is binding only until you find the loophole. In their case, the list was effective with a joined contract an as ALPA as their representing agent. They kicked ALPA out and got out of the Nicolau award.

You completely ignore the fact that the Airways guys left hundreds of millions on the table with pay increases because of their hissy fit.
 
Sounds like a great place. Why'd you leave? Serious question. Was there something there that you didn't like?



Not so fast there. It may still come back to bite them in their new SLI. Remember, LCC management accepted the Nic as the SL. As far as they're concerned, that's the list.

Engineering was a back up only. I was a high school senior when 9/11 happened and had my college applications ready for Jacksonville Univ, Florida Tech, basically 4 year aviation programs. Once the thousands of furloughs were announced a few days after 9/11, I decided to pursue something else that could be a good backup. I went to the Univ of Mich - Ann Arbor and completed the Aerospace Engineering degree. I flew on the side and by the time I graduated I was working on my instrument rating. I then got the engineering job and continued to fly on weekends and work my way through the ratings/certificates while working as an engineer M-F. Did it for a year and it was a good job before moving to the regionals (flying = the original goal).

As for LCC and Nicolau, we'll hbe to see what happens. Some interesting times up ahead.
 
Once again you are wrong. Poor hiring practices, poor training, poor mentoring processes, poor staffing allowed that Captain to be there. The company had more than ample chances to correct any weakness they may have saw in the Captain. They didn't.

Poor? Try virtually none. If they had remotely close to any of those mentioned, he wouldn't have been there.


Then why don't you negotiate what is important for you in your current job?
Because all pilots fall under the pilot work rules agreement.


Wrong again! Look at the DEC scheme in Europe and Asia. Folks are having no problems paying money and being put in the seats of airliners.
Supply and demand. Plenty of carriers in the Middle East and Asia that are paying top dollar for western Captains with time on type.




When people are willing to go to places like Jet U airlines have more leverage than an engineering firm.
It was nothing personal, just a better business decision. On more than one occasion you like to pop Jet U here. Questioning my integrity? Curious, did you tell them during your Spirit interview you were only going to use them for the A320 type and leave in 6 months to your current legacy? A pilot has to make the best decision available at the given moment in time, right? Even if it may not be a popular one.


You completely ignore the fact that the Airways guys left hundreds of millions on the table with pay increases because of their hissy fit.
They did. But to them, preserving their own list was more important. Never ever underestimate what someone will do to protect their seniority.

How about 9Es current fiasco. "What's that? You 9E folks want to use your class date as DOH instead of sim date? Yeah we're going to dispute that." Says the XJ and 9L committees. Fast forward, all props are gone. "Oh yikes! Oh what's that 9E? You want to ask Bloch to clarify intent of the RJ quota which could downgrade every Colgan pilot? Umm, yeah, no..... We're not gonna join you to file with Bloch." And of course if one committee doesn't then the whole thing doesn't get sent to Bloch for clarification. So much for dispute resolution. Never. Ever. Underestimate someone else's willingness to screw you over to protect their seniority and their seat.
 
It was nothing personal, just a better business decision. On more than one occasion you like to pop Jet U here. Questioning my integrity? Curious, did you tell them during your Spirit interview you were only going to use them for the A320 type and leave in 6 months to your current legacy? A pilot has to make the best decision available at the given moment in time, right? Even if it may not be a popular one.
You do understand he was in the pool at his current shop for over 4 years, right? You keep crowing about facts yet I have had a hard time substantiating a lot of what you have posted. The Airways arbitration and continued infighting has kept a majority of their pilots at the bottom of the earnings pile. ALPA used to track the what if scenario and the last time I checked it was north of a billion dollars that pilot group has left on the table.
 
Some of ATN's posts disappeared. Did he get the boot?

Probably deleted it himself when he realized it was an immature personal attack lacking substance.

You do understand he was in the pool at his current shop for over 4 years, right? You keep crowing about facts yet I have had a hard time substantiating a lot of what you have posted. The Airways arbitration and continued infighting has kept a majority of their pilots at the bottom of the earnings pile. ALPA used to track the what if scenario and the last time I checked it was north of a billion dollars that pilot group has left on the table.

That's irrelevant about the pool. Airlines don't like investing 20-30 grand in an A320 type rating only to see a pilot leave in a few months. Was it disclosed about being in the pool? One very common interview question is "what if you go home and Delta and United call with an offer?"

As for Us Airways East, they got exactly what they wanted: a permanent fence keeping West pilots off their equipment/movement. To quote what ATN_Pilot said about turning down SLI method #1 at SWA/Airtran, "pay is temporary, seniority is forever." The East got what they wanted which was a seniority protection, albeit at the expense of higher pay. As for the billion dollar figure, I wouldn't take too much from ALPA considering they are the ones feeling burned from US Airways departure.
 
Poor? Try virtually none. If they had remotely close to any of those mentioned, he wouldn't have been there.

You obviously didn't attend (or read) the NTSB Hearing Transcript were the Colgan Management folks were pleading with the NTSB to provide them and other airline management better hiring background on potential pilots. One of the NTSB Board Members then pointed out to the management team that the hiring background information was available to Colgan since the mid 1990s. Point here is Colgan Management hired him, trained him, allowed him to continue, etc. Yes, the pilot was weak, but it wasn't because of the seniority system.

Because all pilots fall under the pilot work rules agreement.

If you are so passionate about the 'free market' why don't you try to change it? A lot of us on here were passionate about brining a union on at Colgan and we did! If we can do it at Colgan, I am sure you can do it at your place.

Supply and demand. Plenty of carriers in the Middle East and Asia that are paying top dollar for western Captains with time on type.

When pilots are willing to pay for a place like Jet U here in the states, there is your supply and demand.

It was nothing personal, just a better business decision. On more than one occasion you like to pop Jet U here. Questioning my integrity? Curious, did you tell them during your Spirit interview you were only going to use them for the A320 type and leave in 6 months to your current legacy? A pilot has to make the best decision available at the given moment in time, right? Even if it may not be a popular one.

I don't need to explain my career decision to you (or anyone else for that matter). First, you don't have all the facts about exactly the situation I was in when I went to Spirit. Secondly, there have now been two people (none who work for Spirit as a matter of fact) who have attempted to 'call me out' on my decision to leave. FInally, all I need to say is that Spirit would have had no problem furloughing me at any time if the 'free market' changed and they were furloughing, downsizing, whatever. A lot of folks said going to Jet U was a bad idea. Isn't there a lawsuit because of that place? Anyway, I was fortunate to be in the position I was in and I am confident that 99.99999% of folks in my situation would have done the same thing.

They did. But to them, preserving their own list was more important. Never ever underestimate what someone will do to protect their seniority.

I met some Airways guys who were so fed up with USAPA and the money they left on the table, they were embarrassed they voted ALPA out.

How about 9Es current fiasco. "What's that? You 9E folks want to use your class date as DOH instead of sim date? Yeah we're going to dispute that." Says the XJ and 9L committees. Fast forward, all props are gone. "Oh yikes! Oh what's that 9E? You want to ask Bloch to clarify intent of the RJ quota which could downgrade every Colgan pilot? Umm, yeah, no..... We're not gonna join you to file with Bloch." And of course if one committee doesn't then the whole thing doesn't get sent to Bloch for clarification. So much for dispute resolution. Never. Ever. Underestimate someone else's willingness to screw you over to protect their seniority and their seat.

Fiasco? The legacy 9L and XJ guys are doing OK.
 
Anyone else see the irony here?

What irony would that be? Truth of the matter is airlines need pilots and they don't necessarily have to be "good." How is good defined? Use checkride failures as a criteria? Job interview success rate? The list could go on and on.


Seggy said:
You obviously didn't attend (or read) the NTSB Hearing Transcript were the Colgan Management folks were pleading with the NTSB to provide them and other airline management better hiring background on potential pilots. One of the NTSB Board Members then pointed out to the management team that the hiring background information was available to Colgan since the mid 1990s. Point here is Colgan Management hired him, trained him, allowed him to continue, etc. Yes, the pilot was weak, but it wasn't because of the seniority system.

I did read a lot of the transcript. You are making the point for me in regards to Colgan.

When pilots are willing to pay for a place like Jet U here in the states, there is your supply and demand.

What difference does JetU make? It wasn't a PFT organization like Gulfstream was in which you pay to sit in a Beech. JetU was like ALLATPs, CAE, and any other RJ sim company out there. You would come in, pay for sim time and some ground school, and then get only ONE interview out of the program. Nothing was guaranteed. Those hired would go to 9E. This was simply another way to get to a regional. Some choose other routes and there's nothing wrong with any. Once you show up to ground school, no one really cares where you came from. We all have to pass the same interview/background.

I don't need to explain my career decision to you (or anyone else for that matter). First, you don't have all the facts about exactly the situation I was in when I went to Spirit. Secondly, there have now been two people (none who work for Spirit as a matter of fact) who have attempted to 'call me out' on my decision to leave. FInally, all I need to say is that Spirit would have had no problem furloughing me at any time if the 'free market' changed and they were furloughing, downsizing, whatever. A lot of folks said going to Jet U was a bad idea. Isn't there a lawsuit because of that place? Anyway, I was fortunate to be in the position I was in and I am confident that 99.99999% of folks in my situation would have done the same thing.
In that same way, I don't have to explain myself to you either. I must have missed something, you seemed happy at the MIA Airbus center. Regardless, all things equal, in your shoes, I would have probably done the same thing. You are also correct that JetU is gone and there are (were?) lawsuits. I do not know the status of that. In the same way you look at a pilot for going to JetU, I look at it the same when a guy takes a job at a non-union Colgan which is growing explosively at the expense of a union ALPA 9E in a time when 9E then downgrades/displaces pilots, and Colgan grows with newbies showing up being non-union. Our careers were negatively impacted by that non-union growth which was specifically a union-busting move by 9E Corp. There's a reason why Colgan had the fastest upgrades and massive growth. You can't deny that fact. Phil T played his cards right in terms of non-union Colgan vs union ALPA 9E.

I met some Airways guys who were so fed up with USAPA and the money they left on the table, they were embarrassed they voted ALPA out.

But they did vote yes to USAPA and helped push ALPA out. That's like an Obama voter in 2012 now saying he's embarrassed. It still doesn't change the fact they voted that way.

Fiasco? The legacy 9L and XJ guys are doing OK.
Yes, of course they are doing okay! Did you not read my post? When legacy 9E was going to Bloch for the arbitrated list, they wanted their class dates to be used as DOH instead of sim date (both XJ and 9L already had class date = DOH). This was disputed first by XJ, and then 9L joined in on the dispute. Fast forward to a couple weeks ago, now with the props gone and the massive displacement coming, legacy 9E wants to get Bloch to clarify the intent of his RJ quota in that no XJ or 9L pilot can be awarded or displaced into a RJ unless 9E maintains 541 CA positions on the CRJ-200. 9E legacy wanted a clarification but all 3 groups need to file for the dispute to be heard by Bloch. Legacy 9E went ahead with it but were met with a NO from 9L and XJ in that they were not willing to join the dispute. Of course, obviously, with all the props gone 9L could face a downgrade for every pilot if Bloch came back with clarification. So now it doesn't go to Bloch because of the stonewall tactics of 9L.

That was my point. Never ever underestimate how your fellow man will screw you to gain for himself. Initially, both XJ and 9L had class dates as DOH and only 9E had sim date as DOH. 9E wanting to adjust the sim date to class date for DOH was industry standard, and what XJ and 9L *already* had. But in their greedy interest for an approx. 1.5-2 month seniority grab, they disputed with Bloch. Now with the tables turned and the props gone, with a potential situation of all 9L CAs getting downgraded, 9L doesn't want to send any dispute to Bloch for clarification. Amazing how that works out, eh?
 
Man Shyguy, you really have some issues. You are still harping over seniority issues and Bloch issues, and Colgan issues. You don't work here anymore so GET OVER IT. Oh and @kellwolf post on the irony, it would make sense you wouldn't get that little tidbit.
 
Cherokee has gone on record as being "foaming at the month" anti-union. He works at a non-union airline. I simply hope that if Virgin Air goes down that somebody posts his name here so peeps can see decide for themselves if they are interested in working with him. Hiding behind a screen name is kinda wussy if you ask me.
 
Cherokee has gone on record as being "foaming at the month" anti-union. He works at a non-union airline. I simply hope that if Virgin Air goes down that somebody posts his name here so peeps can see decide for themselves if they are interested in working with him. Hiding behind a screen name is kinda wussy if you ask me.

Why would you, personally, want to screw with someone else's career? There is nothing better for you to do? For someone who claims to be a mentor, that kind of talk is unprofessional. I suppose its okay in your book to backstab a pilot? I have a right to be anti-union if I so choose. You have a right to be pro-union but you don't see me wishing you ill and hoping a union fails.

Also, I didn't choose my airline because they are non-union. Those things are beyond control. At the time I applied, only Spirit and Virgin were hiring and I got only one call from the two listed. So I hope you don't have this notion that I was trying to prove a point by working at a non-union airline? For me it was throw the darts out there and go with the flow.
 
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Why would you, personally, want to screw with someone else's career? There is nothing better for you to do? For someone who claims to be a mentor, that kind of talk is unprofessional. I suppose its okay in your book to backstab a pilot? I have a right to be anti-union if I so choose. You have a right to be pro-union but you don't see me wishing you ill and hoping a union fails.

Also, I didn't choose my airline because they are non-union. Those things are beyond control. At the time I applied, only Spirit and Virgin were hiring and I got only one call from the two listed. So I hope you don't have this notion that I was trying to prove a point by working at a non-union airline? For me it was throw the darts out there and go with the flow.
Non-union, jetU grad if I remember correctly... Yeah who would want to screw over other people????
 
What irony would that be? Truth of the matter is airlines need pilots and they don't necessarily have to be "good." How is good defined? Use checkride failures as a criteria? Job interview success rate? The list could go on and on.




I did read a lot of the transcript. You are making the point for me in regards to Colgan.



What difference does JetU make? It wasn't a PFT organization like Gulfstream was in which you pay to sit in a Beech. JetU was like ALLATPs, CAE, and any other RJ sim company out there. You would come in, pay for sim time and some ground school, and then get only ONE interview out of the program. Nothing was guaranteed. Those hired would go to 9E. This was simply another way to get to a regional. Some choose other routes and there's nothing wrong with any. Once you show up to ground school, no one really cares where you came from. We all have to pass the same interview/background.


In that same way, I don't have to explain myself to you either. I must have missed something, you seemed happy at the MIA Airbus center. Regardless, all things equal, in your shoes, I would have probably done the same thing. You are also correct that JetU is gone and there are (were?) lawsuits. I do not know the status of that. In the same way you look at a pilot for going to JetU, I look at it the same when a guy takes a job at a non-union Colgan which is growing explosively at the expense of a union ALPA 9E in a time when 9E then downgrades/displaces pilots, and Colgan grows with newbies showing up being non-union. Our careers were negatively impacted by that non-union growth which was specifically a union-busting move by 9E Corp. There's a reason why Colgan had the fastest upgrades and massive growth. You can't deny that fact. Phil T played his cards right in terms of non-union Colgan vs union ALPA 9E.



But they did vote yes to USAPA and helped push ALPA out. That's like an Obama voter in 2012 now saying he's embarrassed. It still doesn't change the fact they voted that way.


Yes, of course they are doing okay! Did you not read my post? When legacy 9E was going to Bloch for the arbitrated list, they wanted their class dates to be used as DOH instead of sim date (both XJ and 9L already had class date = DOH). This was disputed first by XJ, and then 9L joined in on the dispute. Fast forward to a couple weeks ago, now with the props gone and the massive displacement coming, legacy 9E wants to get Bloch to clarify the intent of his RJ quota in that no XJ or 9L pilot can be awarded or displaced into a RJ unless 9E maintains 541 CA positions on the CRJ-200. 9E legacy wanted a clarification but all 3 groups need to file for the dispute to be heard by Bloch. Legacy 9E went ahead with it but were met with a NO from 9L and XJ in that they were not willing to join the dispute. Of course, obviously, with all the props gone 9L could face a downgrade for every pilot if Bloch came back with clarification. So now it doesn't go to Bloch because of the stonewall tactics of 9L.

That was my point. Never ever underestimate how your fellow man will screw you to gain for himself. Initially, both XJ and 9L had class dates as DOH and only 9E had sim date as DOH. 9E wanting to adjust the sim date to class date for DOH was industry standard, and what XJ and 9L *already* had. But in their greedy interest for an approx. 1.5-2 month seniority grab, they disputed with Bloch. Now with the tables turned and the props gone, with a potential situation of all 9L CAs getting downgraded, 9L doesn't want to send any dispute to Bloch for clarification. Amazing how that works out, eh?
Dude u shoulda gone to Colgan, it was a blast. Quick upgrade too. Awesome pilot group too.
 
Non-union, jetU grad if I remember correctly... Yeah who would want to screw over other people????

I have not personally screwed over anyone else's career, nor have I heeded a call to do so as DE727UPS is saying. Being at a non-union carrier like SkyWest/Virgin/JetBlue should be irrelevant and it doesn't mean pilots at these airlines are haters of unions. I was at an ALPA airline prior to my current one and it's not like I wanted to de-certify it. As mentioned before, the industry ebbs and flows and I did not base a career decision on a union (of which can come and go anyway). As for JetU, I did not screw over anyone here by attending it. It's like the ALLATPs program, not the Gulfstream Beech program. There is no correlation.
 
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