Behind the Southwest Airlines Culture

Personal insults will never help your cause. I use facts to back up my statements. You admit in your own post that the merger committee (or really the MEC) screwing up, you go off on their hard schedules, lack of sleep, unappreciated work. That's not a valid excuse. This is voluntary work. If you don't want to do it and don't have the energy or the time, then don't sign up.

To use facts, ALPA royally screwed up TWA pilots in their merger with AA. Lets be honest, ALPA wanted AA back ever since they said goodbye and formed APA. But this attempt failed and now ALPA lost a huge DFR lawsuit to the TWA pilots - something they are still appealing. As a result of this fiasco, you had federal laws enacted to protect pilots in senioirity integrations! That should tell you something right there. Next, US Airways and AWA who were both already ALPA. Their merger policy led to the binding arbitration award from Nicolau. Perceived as a windwall by the US Airways pilot group, they found the loophole that the list was not valid until a joined contract and while ALPA was their bargaining agent. They voted out ALPA and got USAPA as their in-house union. Again, major changes came after this in ALPA merger policy. Now the joined contract comes first and then the senoirity integration procedures. ALPA learned that they screwed up (again) and did the steps necessary to avoid the future problem. DAL/NWA was relatively speaking a success story. Pinnacle/Colgan/Mesaba was a fiasco with merger committees only looking out for their own selective best interest (read: protect the seniors), except Colgan which just wanted relative. In the end, Bloch used a similar methodology for Delta/NWA, with 5 year fences protecting Qs at Colgan and the RJs at Mesaba/Pinnacle. These fences are meant for (and make sense) to protect 777 flying at Delta and 747 flying at NWA for 5 years. This becomes a complete disaster at a regional level. Lastly, to Seggy, I don't know what high horse you roll your eyes from but I can assure you plenty of your Continental colleagues feel royally screwed and POed at the binding arbitration.

At best, ALPA has a VERY checkered history with seniority integrations.

If any of you want to respond, keep it legit with facts and not personal insults....... you lose all credibility when you take jabs instead of using facts.
 
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Seggy said:
With every merger there are folks that are going to be pissed. I get it, maybe you should as well.


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Yes, but when LAWS are enacted (TWA) and merger policy changed (USAir) to prevent what just happpened maybe it's time to admit that hey yeah not only are people pissed but something got royally screwed up in the process and we were wrong.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Yes, but when LAWS are enacted (TWA) and merger policy changed (USAir) to prevent what just happpened maybe it's time to admit that hey yeah not only are people pissed but something got royally screwed up in the process and we were wrong.
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You do realize the law that was enacted was because of the Flight Attendants and not the pilots? Also, there is nothing wrong to look at policy and changing it for the better.

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Seggy said:
You do realize the law that was enacted was because of the Flight Attendants and not the pilots? Also, there is nothing wrong to look at policy and changing it for the better.

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Don't worry, bro. My know-it-all relative loves to tell me about how the airline business works.
 
Serious question for @cherokee_cruiser...

How should mergers be handled with SLI integrations as ALPA 'sucks' in handling them?


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Seggy said:
Serious question for @cherokee_cruiser...

How should mergers be handled with SLI integrations as ALPA 'sucks' in handling them?


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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Personal insults will never help your cause. I use facts to back up my statements. You admit in your own post that the merger committee (or really the MEC) screwing up, you go off on their hard schedules, lack of sleep, unappreciated work. That's not a valid excuse. This is voluntary work. If you don't want to do it and don't have the energy or the time, then don't sign up.
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You have the reading comprehension skills of a first grader. And that's probably being generous. I wasn't talking about their "hard schedules, lack of sleep, unappreciated work," I was talking about what it's like to actually have to make real decisions that seriously affect real people. If you weren't such a punk who's never had any real responsibility in his life, then perhaps you'd understand that.
 
Seggy said:
Serious question for @cherokee_cruiser...

How should mergers be handled with SLI integrations as ALPA 'sucks' in handling them?


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If it was up to me, we'd have had a national longevity list a long time ago. Or better yet, no seniority system. Like the private sector, you negotiate with the company and get things that matter most to you. Ernest Gann said it best about the seniority system, it protects the weak, of which are present in greatest numbers. I would not let 3 individuals at my airline decide what's best for me and my family. Sharing my voice only works for so much. It's my voice and 1,200 others. That's 1,200 different opinions on how an integriation should go. US Airways already showed the power of a pissed off pilot group.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You have the reading comprehension skills of a first grader. And that's probably being generous. I wasn't talking about their "hard schedules, lack of sleep, unappreciated work," I was talking about what it's like to actually have to make real decisions that seriously affect real people. If you weren't such a punk who's never had any real responsibility in his life, then perhaps you'd understand that.
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There's the insults again. Punk huh? So let me see if I can work with your level and use some insults since that's how you communicate. Comprehension skills of a first grader? How original, coming from a high school graduate only. Make real decisions that affect real people? BFD. POLL ME if you want opinions. That was never done and is usually not done for integration. We're left to think 3 super senior pilots know what's best. I commend SWA management 100% for what they did. They weren't going to put up with BS from the likes of you (I know you weren't on the merger team, hence the likes of). Never had any responsibility in real life? You know, on the totem pole of real responsibility in life, I would say maintaining a marriage and raising a child successfully are at the apex of responsibility. You have neither. Please don't lecture me on real responsibility. My son hasn't recalled me, nor has my wife left me. You were recalled, period. The one big responsibility in your life was taken away from you from those your serve. It's really hard to argue with you because you ALWAYS resort to insults and namecalling. Maybe one day you will argue without using childish techniques but I doubt it. Now take off your ALPA pin and put on your SWAPA pin already.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
If it was up to me, we'd have had a national longevity list a long time ago.
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OK

Or better yet, no seniority system. Like the private sector, you negotiate with the company and get things that matter most to you. Ernest Gann said it best about the seniority system, it protects the weak, of which are present in greatest numbers.
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Seriously? The only thing that would do is lead to places like JetU offering 'direct entry Airbus Captain slots' at places for $100,000 a piece. Neither you, or Gann for that matter have, worked at an airline with a no seniority system. Colgan really didn't have a seniority system until we got the contract in place. It sucked and has FAR more downfalls than the seniority system. BTW, the seniority system doesn't protect the weak. Airlines have plenty of opportunities to vet candidates and properly train them. If some can't make it, there are ways for that to be handled.

US Airways already showed the power of a pissed off pilot group.
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:rolleyes:

Binding arbitration is binding arbitration. The people I know at America West aren't sure about what 'power' you speak of. Furthermore, look at the rates Airways had before the merger with American was finalized. FAAAAAAAAR below the industry average because of their hissy fit.
 
Seggy said:
OK



Seriously? The only thing that would do is lead to places like JetU offering 'direct entry Airbus Captain slots' at places for $100,000 a piece. Neither you, or Gann for that matter have, worked at an airline with a no seniority system. Colgan really didn't have a seniority system until we got the contract in place. It sucked and has FAR more downfalls than the seniority system. BTW, the seniority system doesn't protect the weak. Airlines have plenty of opportunities to vet candidates and properly train them. If some can't make it, there are ways for that to be handled.



:rolleyes:

Binding arbitration is binding arbitration. The people I know at America West aren't sure about what 'power' you speak of. Furthermore, look at the rates Airways had before the merger with American was finalized. FAAAAAAAAR below the industry average because of their hissy fit.
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Seniority does protect the weak. Colgan's 3407 CA made it that night in his position because the seniority system allowed him to be here. Anyway, I'd change it to a private sector business. Take my previous engineering firm. Walking in as a brand new 22 yr old engineer I couldn't demand nor get what a 15 yr senior engineer made. However, I made more than most 22 y olds due to the job field. I negotiated what was important for me and then closed the deal. If an airline wants to set up a DEC scheme and collect 100 grand from a pilot, they could do that. However, insurance requirements for flight experience still need to be met. Funny thing, my firm never hired pay-to-play engineers. Why? They needed competent engineers to get the job done with an emphasis on quality and safety.

As for binding, ask the US Airways guys. Binding is binding only until you find the loophole. In their case, the list was effective with a joined contract an as ALPA as their representing agent. They kicked ALPA out and got out of the Nicolau award.
 
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