Behind the Southwest Airlines Culture

MikeD said: ↑
I can't speak to someone's inner motivation or feeling, as I'm not them. My only concern is that is the information being posted by him factual, or not? If it's not, it should be easy to refute, I'd imagine. It's interesting subject matter, so it'd be nice to know what the facts really are, whether it's one side, the other side, or somewhere in the middle.
Click to expand...


jynxyjoe said:
You haven't seen that debate going on? I have. CC does his best to be a jerk, he destroys his own credibility, and as a result there are a percentage of people on the board and in life that will look for his motives when he says/does anything. As far as mod'ing him or not, I don't care, not my problem. He's a bag of tools, he will be treated as such by me. He is responsible for his content and everyone knows exactly who he is.

I was simply agreeing with Yoda's perspective on recent history (or what you an others seem to call ancient history)and I wanted to expand on it.
Click to expand...

I'd challenge you to find one post with false accusations or false stories. MikeD asked about factualness, not about what you perceive me to be be (jerk in your own words, a punk in ATN's words). This name calling is unncessary and doesn't prove your point. When one has to resort to insults, they have nothing better to say. As for you agreeing with Yoda's perspective, he still can't let go of the JetU past history. At some point, he (and you) need to get over RJ programs. It was but one path among many available.
 
With the exception of a few rental flights purely for fun I haven't paid for a flight hour or training event since my me-com rating. So cost of cfi is not the same as pft. Plus at the end of the day you have a cfi rating you can use about anywhere if you needed. A cr/erj type rating isn't going to make you a penny outside the regional you work for unless China starts flying them.
 
"I'd challenge you to find one post with false accusations or false stories."

You started a thread quoting ATP flight school marketing which touts a young lady who went from zero time to a pilot at Delta in an unusually short period. Derg said that pilot was not on the seniority list and Cptnchica said that pilot was not a Delta employee.

ATP marketing is full of half truths designed to suck folks into their system. Typical advertising stuff. Not sure what you're motivation is but if you want to be the poster child for successful zero to hero flight schools and min-experience airline pilots, then knock yerself out. I'll be happy to be the poster child for old skool....
 
With regards to being a Delta employee, at the interview if you pass, you are given a conditional offer of employment. That is contingent of passing the background checks. Once you pass that, you get the cleared to train letter and are put in a hiring pool. You only become an actual employee when you report for training and complete a W-4.

Sounds like the school is playing a little loose with the truth. She's been offered a job, she hasn't been hired yet.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
You always pay to get to regional. Nothing is free. The route you choose cost the equivalent of 4 more checkrides, Comm-SE, CFI, -I, ME-I. That's thousands of dollars. More power to you and the very helpful CFI route (which I think is honorable). However at the end of the day, if you were to tally up what I paid in my career, it's be pretty much the same as what you paid. We both ended up at 9E and then at JBLU/VX. So in the end, what did it matter? No one cared or asked where you came from prior to a regional.
Click to expand...

I'm game. You REALLY think my CFI ratings cost the same a JetU? Last time I checked, JetU cost more than $5,000. Yeah, that included check rides, too. Rates in 2005 were still somewhat reasonable. Oh, and I got something tangible for my money as well.
 
kellwolf said:
I'm game. You REALLY think my CFI ratings cost the same a JetU? Last time I checked, JetU cost more than $5,000. Yeah, that included check rides, too. Rates in 2005 were still somewhat reasonable. Oh, and I got something tangible for my money as well.
Click to expand...
It is what it was. Jet U didn't just save on the Comm-SE and CFI ratings, it saved the time from when you got your CFI to the time you were hired at 9E. How long was that and how much were you making, and then take that time+money and subtract from your final years in your career in when you would be a narrow/widebody CA making six figures. These programs flourished because of the seniority system. Everyone has a right to choose their path. From early 2005 to late 2012 versus late 2007 to early 2012 to get to a Major/LCC. 3 years shorter for basically same end result with same regional and non-union LCC carriers. Why are we debating this still. The days of lower time pilots are gone with the new law requiring an ATP and 1500 hrs. This debate is now all a moot point.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
The days of lower time pilots are gone with the new law requiring an ATP and 1500 hrs. This debate is now all a moot point.
Click to expand...

I'd say it's *not* a moot point, because there's still a large body of airline pilots out there who used "pay for job/pay for interview" methods.

While there's clearly variability in skill levels within that population, I'd contend that as a whole the low-time group did *not* have the same initial development of skill and experience as CFI's/freight pilots. I believe that this discrepancy can still play a role even after they accumulate thousands of hours at the airlines....I bet you can name two high-profile examples.
 
Last edited:
kellwolf said:
I'm game. You REALLY think my CFI ratings cost the same a JetU? Last time I checked, JetU cost more than $5,000. Yeah, that included check rides, too. Rates in 2005 were still somewhat reasonable. Oh, and I got something tangible for my money as well.
Click to expand...
I was going to stay out of this discussion and have been reading it and thinking it over. After reading it again, I decided to express my view.

You got way more than something tangible. This is where the real fail is for those who simply refuse to "get it"....... money cannot and does not buy you EXPERIENCE. There's paying to sit in a SIM and there is flying in an actual plane. What Captain would not prefer to sit next to someone with more experience and a larger variety of experience and experience in more types of aircraft and in more kinds of conditions? None that I have ever known.

For those who believe "short cuts" are a marvelous thing, they are not. It is just not the end result to get somewhere, it is what you do along the way, what you gain and the skills that you hone. It is about flying several types of planes, it is learning about the MX of those planes, it's experiencing all types of weather in all seasons and landings in that weather and various other conditions and at various fields. It's the experience and the flying of different work, whether it;'s freight, banner towing, jumpers, mapping, ferrying aircraft, whatever. The experience in handling an emergency situation for instance, is one thing in theory and quite another in practice. The experience of being a CFI, and what you learn in patience, knowledge, working in tandem, teaching and again the flying experience itself, cannot be dismissed or discounted. It is rewarding and something to be proud of.

There is a reason that a pilot's career is a process, a process of steps, that different certs must be earned and what it takes to get those certs. You did it the right way. You did it the way that has made you a better aviator with better skills. You earned it. You own it. Period. I respect that. Your experience and attitude are worthy of respect and you deserve to be where you currently are in your career.

I'd rather sit next to you, any damn day of the week.
 
Last edited:
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
It is what it was. Jet U didn't just save on the Comm-SE and CFI ratings, it saved the time from when you got your CFI to the time you were hired at 9E. How long was that and how much were you making, and then take that time+money and subtract from your final years in your career in when you would be a narrow/widebody CA making six figures. These programs flourished because of the seniority system.
Click to expand...

No. These programs flourished on the fact that no one wanted to leave their freight, charter, corporate or good CFI job to work for such low wages and the regionals didn't want to increase pay to attract them. Why would they when there were plenty of people willing to pay extra to get hired at low time to skip ahead. Before 2005 and after 2011, the programs don't exist.

And as for the "lost wages," given the time period and the hours people were being hired, you're talking 6-12 months max gone. You're also assuming one would get hired at a major and retire a wide body CA. That's something I'm not very likely to do.

Everyone has a right to choose their path. From early 2005 to late 2012 versus late 2007 to early 2012 to get to a Major/LCC. 3 years shorter for basically same end result with same regional and non-union LCC carriers.
Click to expand...

You honestly think that if you had taken another path, you'd just NOW be getting hired at VA? 3 years is way overreaching on your estimate. I was flying with guys hired as CFIs that had 500-600 hours when I was a CA at 9E. At best, your thousands of dollars bought you a few months on them.

Why are we debating this still. The days of lower time pilots are gone with the new law requiring an ATP and 1500 hrs. This debate is now all a moot point.
Click to expand...

We're debating this because I called you out on your revisionist history. I still haven't seen anything in your posts or attitude that indicates otherwise.
 
Remember that in 1995-1998 both FSI and Comair Academy had $10,000 pay to play schools. $10,000 for Jetstream, Saab, or B1900 training. No job offer until training was complete.

Minimums to apply? 1500TT and 200-500 ME.
 
zmiller4 said:
I'd say it's *not* a moot point, because there's still a large body of airline pilots out there who used "pay for job/pay for interview" methods.

While there's clearly variability in skill levels within that population, I'd contend that as a whole the low-time group did *not* have the same initial development of skill and experience as CFI's/freight pilots. I believe that this discrepancy can still play a role even after they accumulate thousands of hours at the airlines....I bet you can name two high-profile examples.
Click to expand...

It is a moot point now. Those low time guys in 2006-7 are now 5,000+ hrs guys today. And who cares what a "large body of airline pilots" did or didn't do to get their job and be where they are at today? They are no different than any other airline pilot on the seniority list. I won't deny CFIing is good experience, but to say it concrete that those without it have less skill development is an over generalization. Remember, it was an experienced ex-CFI who retracted the flaps on a wing that was already stalled outside Buffalo, NY.


You got way more than something tangible. This is where the real fail is for those who simply refuse to "get it"....... money cannot and does not buy you EXPERIENCE. There's paying to sit in a SIM and there is flying in an actual plane. What Captain would not prefer to sit next to someone with more experience and a larger variety of experience and experience in more types of aircraft and in more kinds of conditions? None that I have ever known.
For those who believe "short cuts" are a marvelous thing, they are not. It is just not the end result to get somewhere, it is what you do along the way, what you gain and the skills that you hone. It is about flying several types of planes, it is learning about the MX of those planes, it's experiencing all types of weather in all seasons and landings in that weather and various other conditions and at various fields. It's the experience and the flying of different work, whether it;'s freight, banner towing, jumpers, mapping, ferrying aircraft, whatever. The experience in handling an emergency situation for instance, is one thing in theory and quite another in practice. The experience of being a CFI, and what you learn in patience, knowledge, working in tandem, teaching and again the flying experience itself, cannot be dismissed or discounted. It is rewarding and something to be proud of.
There is a reason that a pilot's career is a process, a process of steps, that different certs must be earned and what it takes to get those certs. You did it the right way. You did it the way that has made you a better aviator with better skills. You earned it. You own it. Period. I respect that. Your experience and attitude are worthy of respect and you deserve to be where you currently are in your career.
I'd rather sit next to you, any damn day of the week.
Click to expand...

This whole CFI to the regionals and make it to the majors exists only in Canada/US for the most part. The rest of the world they all have ab-initio programs and guys are hired with just a private/instrument/commercial/multi with 250 hrs or so and given training in sims and end up on A320s, 330s, 340s, 777s, etc. Even safe, respectable airlines of the world have employed this strategy. Emirates, Singapore, JAL, EVA, ANA, Qatar, Etihad, etc. Just because you are used to it doesn't mean it is the only way.

And besides, I don't think EVERYONE should be a CFI in the same way that I wouldn't tell someone to go be a teacher. A CFI is a teacher, and has to be a very patient one. Not everyone is cut out for that kinda thing. Too often some of these pilots would come in and see it as nothing more than a ticket to a regional. This is the only career in which a brand new commercial pilot can teach others how to fly. You don't see new residency graduates teaching med school students how to be doctors. I always thought it was weird that a 250 hr guy can be teaching someone else to fly. No other professional field does that. When it came to CFIs, I'd always preferred and took the career CFIs or the part-timers who had no other goals to move up. These pilots were genuinely interested in progress and weren't pursing a regional to just build time.

"and you deserve to be where you currently are in your career."

And the seniority system dictates that 100% doesn't matter. You could be sitting next to a scab that ALPA 'forgave' and he is just as "right there" with you as any other pilot on the seniority list. "Deserve" is a wrong word to use in aviation.
 
kellwolf said:
No. These programs flourished on the fact that no one wanted to leave their freight, charter, corporate or good CFI job to work for such low wages and the regionals didn't want to increase pay to attract them. Why would they when there were plenty of people willing to pay extra to get hired at low time to skip ahead. Before 2005 and after 2011, the programs don't exist.
Click to expand...
Before that timeframe, regionals themselves had PFT where you paid 10k for the privilege of working for them. There was no shortage of pilots who did that and that continued almost to 1999-2000. People come to regionals for Part 121 time. Freight/charter/corporate/CFI doesn't get you that unless the carrier is Part 121.

And as for the "lost wages," given the time period and the hours people were being hired, you're talking 6-12 months max gone. You're also assuming one would get hired at a major and retire a wide body CA. That's something I'm not very likely to do.
Click to expand...
Can you provide what month you obtained your commercial license and multi engine rating to the month you were hired at 9E. How many months/years was that? And remember, back in 2005 as you mentioned, things were CHEAP and people could actually afford to fly. If you think someone can work a full time CFI job in Podunk, USA at a local FBO these days............ dream on. The airport I got my private out of no longer has any full time instructors, only a few part-timers.

You honestly think that if you had taken another path, you'd just NOW be getting hired at VA? 3 years is way overreaching on your estimate. I was flying with guys hired as CFIs that had 500-600 hours when I was a CA at 9E. At best, your thousands of dollars bought you a few months on them.
Click to expand...
Absolutely not! I'd be screwed. Remember, I was hired Oct '07. By spring of 2008, regionals had pretty much stopped hiring (like 9E). By the time I would have obtained my Comm-SE, CFIs, and teach people (did people have money to fly in a deep recession that was 2008 and 2009?), I would have missed out the hiring before the recession. My first opportunity to get hired would have been 2010 and more realistically 2011 at a regional when things started to pick up again. Then to obtain a total time of 4,000 hrs required by the current carrier would have taken another 3-4 years.


We're debating this because I called you out on your revisionist history. I still haven't seen anything in your posts or attitude that indicates otherwise.
Click to expand...
What revision of history?
 
zmiller4 said:
I'd say it's *not* a moot point, because there's still a large body of airline pilots out there who used "pay for job/pay for interview" methods.

While there's clearly variability in skill levels within that population, I'd contend that as a whole the low-time group did *not* have the same initial development of skill and experience as CFI's/freight pilots. I believe that this discrepancy can still play a role even after they accumulate thousands of hours at the airlines....I bet you can name two high-profile examples.
Click to expand...

The bold is hard to quantify. The reason I say that is demonstrated by USAF pilot training, for instance. You take a guy with zero flight time, and a guy with 1000 civilian hours. The guy with the civilian hours will initially have a big leg-up in the beginning of pilot training. He'll have the basics down....flying, instruments, etc. But there will come a point where there are things that are new to both people....the military-specific stuff. That's where the advantage starts to shallow out and both guys begin to be on or near a certain level of equality.......the former leg-up no longer being as much of a factor. I would contend that this can also apply at an airline when two different background people who haven't done airline flying before, both fly 121 for a number of years. At some point, their backgrounds become more or less moot, and the playing field levels.

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
"and you deserve to be where you currently are in your career."

And the seniority system dictates that 100% doesn't matter. You could be sitting next to a scab that ALPA 'forgave' and he is just as "right there" with you as any other pilot on the seniority list. "Deserve" is a wrong word to use in aviation.
Click to expand...

This has a certain degree of truth. First off, nothing is deserved, just as nothing is fair. Timing is really everything. How so? Because you can have an Eastern picket line crosser, and he's a scab for life with no recourse. You could have a CAL guy who crossed in '83, who gets forgiven. How are the two different? Answer: timing, and political convenience. I mean, let's call a spade a spade here. It does indeed get muddy when we try to define who deserves what, and that applies to anything....I can give similar military aviation examples.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Before that timeframe, regionals themselves had PFT where you paid 10k for the privilege of working for them. There was no shortage of pilots who did that and that continued almost to 1999-2000. People come to regionals for Part 121 time. Freight/charter/corporate/CFI doesn't get you that unless the carrier is Part 121.
Click to expand...

Sure. Now ask yourself why they stopped. They couldn't get people to do it anymore since their competitors weren't forcing their people to do it. So, they stopped forcing people to pay for their own training. Same reason places like JetU closed their doors when no one would hire a guy with 500 hours anymore.

Can you provide what month you obtained your commercial license and multi engine rating to the month you were hired at 9E. How many months/years was that?
Click to expand...

7 months. Like I said, at the time, you bought yourself about 12 months tops.

What revision of history?
Click to expand...

Nevermind. I'm done.
 
kellwolf said:
Sure. Now ask yourself why they stopped. They couldn't get people to do it anymore since their competitors weren't forcing their people to do it. So, they stopped forcing people to pay for their own training. Same reason places like JetU closed their doors when no one would hire a guy with 500 hours anymore.
Click to expand...
That argument doesn't work when you consider from 2000-early 2007 9E didn't even provide hotel/pay in newhire training at a time when almost every other regional was providing shared double occupancy hotels, pay/per diem, and a seniority date with class date day one. 9E did it the complete opposite and had no shortage of applicants who lined up to do it despite other regionals paying for this stuff. JetU only closed their doors because their exclusive agreement was with 9E and 9E stopped hiring mid 2008 due to the recession. The recession was a wild card. Had 9E continued hiring, JetU would have been around as it churned out pilots for 9E and would have existed up to the point of Aug 2013 when newhire pilots were required to have ATP and 1,500 hrs.

7 months. Like I said, at the time, you bought yourself about 12 months tops.
Nevermind. I'm done.
Click to expand...

Oct '07 to Oct '08 = no one hiring. That's the difference 12 months can make in a seniority system. Not to mention, the perfect timing of late 07 meant only 2 months of reserve before jumping into 90 hr lines. Guys hired Jan 08 sat reserve for the entire recession, 2.5+ years and flew on average 30-50 hrs per month or less. By getting 90 hr lines, I went from low time to getting 1000 hrs every year in 2008-2011 and allowed me to apply to current carrier in end of 2011. Had it not been for this exact timing in this exact path, I would not be where I am today.... not by a long shot.

I do not understand the term "revisionist history." If you're trying to accuse something, I'd be happy to address it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top