Beacon Inop, What do you do? *DELETED* *DELETED*
- Thread starter CFI_Ty
- Start date
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
Re: Beacon Inop, What do you do?
Check Kinds of Operations, if it is required in that specific planes Day VFR ops, then it is required.
However, if you are flying a 152 without an MEL, you aren't required by 91.205 to have it during day VFR ops. Only planes certificated after March of 1996 require the anti-collision lights to be on.
Check Kinds of Operations, if it is required in that specific planes Day VFR ops, then it is required.
However, if you are flying a 152 without an MEL, you aren't required by 91.205 to have it during day VFR ops. Only planes certificated after March of 1996 require the anti-collision lights to be on.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Re: Beacon Inop, What do you do?
[ QUOTE ]
Check Kinds of Operations, if it is required in that specific planes Day VFR ops, then it is required.
However, if you are flying a 152 without an MEL, you aren't required by 91.205 to have it during day VFR ops. Only planes certificated after March of 1996 require the anti-collision lights to be on.
[/ QUOTE ]Why are you stopping at 91.205? Were you taught TOMATO FLAMES?
GaTechKid is correct.
[ QUOTE ]
Check Kinds of Operations, if it is required in that specific planes Day VFR ops, then it is required.
However, if you are flying a 152 without an MEL, you aren't required by 91.205 to have it during day VFR ops. Only planes certificated after March of 1996 require the anti-collision lights to be on.
[/ QUOTE ]Why are you stopping at 91.205? Were you taught TOMATO FLAMES?
GaTechKid is correct.
CFI_Ty
New Member
Re: Beacon Inop, What do you do?
Ya I know TOMATO FLAMES. But that doesn't necassarily say anything about the beacon. One of my questions was what is the definition of the "anti-collision light" system?. If it is the strobes and the beacon than 91.205 says that if any part of the anti-collision light system is inop than only a flight to get it repaired is allowed. I asked someone else and what they said is that if your beacon doesn't work than you can only fly if your strobes work during the day but at night you must have both, but I couldn't find it anywhere in the FAR's. From what I understand now is that it is legal to fly day VFR without a beacon, atleast thats what most people have been telling me. So what are your thoughts MikeD and Midlifeflyer? And where are you getting your answers from? Thanks!
Ya I know TOMATO FLAMES. But that doesn't necassarily say anything about the beacon. One of my questions was what is the definition of the "anti-collision light" system?. If it is the strobes and the beacon than 91.205 says that if any part of the anti-collision light system is inop than only a flight to get it repaired is allowed. I asked someone else and what they said is that if your beacon doesn't work than you can only fly if your strobes work during the day but at night you must have both, but I couldn't find it anywhere in the FAR's. From what I understand now is that it is legal to fly day VFR without a beacon, atleast thats what most people have been telling me. So what are your thoughts MikeD and Midlifeflyer? And where are you getting your answers from? Thanks!
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Re: Beacon Inop, What do you do?
[ QUOTE ]
Ya I know TOMATO FLAMES. But that doesn't necessarily say anything about the beacon.
[/ QUOTE ]You're right. The hot vegetable comment was to lruppert who pointed to 91.205 and gave an incorrect answer. I have a hypothesis that people who learned TOMATOE FLAMES or GOOSE A CAT are more likely to get an airworthiness question wrong that those who never heard of it.
[ QUOTE ]
One of my questions was what is the definition of the "anti-collision light" system?. If it is the strobes and the beacon than 91.205 says that if any part of the anti-collision light system is inop than only a flight to get it repaired is allowed. I asked someone else and what they said is that if your beacon doesn't work than you can only fly if your strobes work during the day but at night you must have both, but I couldn't find it anywhere in the FAR's. From what I understand now is that it is legal to fly day VFR without a beacon
[/ QUOTE ]Let's break this up into pieces.
The first part is easy. It is legal to fly day VFR without a anticollision light system if the airplane simply doesn't have one. Aircraft were certified for years without them, and even without electrical systems to run them. That's the small 91.205(b) piece - an airplane doesn't have to have an anticollision light system in order to fly day VFR.
But 91.209 is equally clear that if an airplane has an anticollision light system it must be operating (subject to safety issues. Here's what the FAA had to say about it when it amended 91.209 (at the same time it amended Part 23 to require all aircraft certified after 1996 to have a system):
Federal Register: February 9, 1996 (Volume 61, Number 28), Page 5151-5171] (Eff 3-11-96)
==============================
Section 91.209 Aircraft Lights
Proposed new Sec. 91.209(b) would require that airplanes equipped with an anticollision light system be operated with the anticollision light system lighted during all types of operations, except when the pilot determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the interest of safety to turn the lights off.
One commenter believes that the proposal is unacceptable to aircraft operators. This commenter contends that the midair collision statistics are purely conjectural and that any safety benefits are merely guesswork. The commenter also notes that this change would affect an aircraft's dispatch capability, and questions why an airplane that is perfectly capable of being flown should be grounded from daytime flight because something, such as a lamp, is defective.
The FAA agrees that there will be incidents where an airplane will be temporarily grounded from daylight operations until a failure in the light system can be repaired. However, the additional safety cue provided to pilots by operating anticollision light systems will outweigh the cost of maintaining the light system.
The proposed revision of Sec. 91.209 is adopted as proposed.
==============================
[quote[91.205 says that if any part of the anti-collision light system is inop than only a flight to get it repaired is allowed.
[/ QUOTE ]Not really. The part of 91.205(c) that talks about flying until repair is talking about a night flight during which the system becomes inoperative:
==============================
In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operations with the aircraft may be continued to a stop where repairs or replacement can be made. [91.205(c)(3)]
==============================
It doesn't authorize you to take off with an inoperative light.
I don't see anything in the FAR that differentiates between day and night for the purpose of figuring out whether you need both or just one.
On your which one is the system and what if it has both strobes and beacon question, I'm really not sure. (BTW, I'm assuming that the aircraft equipment, TCDS, etc don't require it and it has been properly removed or deactivated and placarded under 91.213.)
The "required" system is described in 23.1401, so I guess that if the airplane has that one, it's the required one and you can forego the other. But that's only a guess. I don't really know enough about it from a systems perspective to know the answer. Maybe one of our AP friends has a clue.
[ QUOTE ]
Ya I know TOMATO FLAMES. But that doesn't necessarily say anything about the beacon.
[/ QUOTE ]You're right. The hot vegetable comment was to lruppert who pointed to 91.205 and gave an incorrect answer. I have a hypothesis that people who learned TOMATOE FLAMES or GOOSE A CAT are more likely to get an airworthiness question wrong that those who never heard of it.
[ QUOTE ]
One of my questions was what is the definition of the "anti-collision light" system?. If it is the strobes and the beacon than 91.205 says that if any part of the anti-collision light system is inop than only a flight to get it repaired is allowed. I asked someone else and what they said is that if your beacon doesn't work than you can only fly if your strobes work during the day but at night you must have both, but I couldn't find it anywhere in the FAR's. From what I understand now is that it is legal to fly day VFR without a beacon
[/ QUOTE ]Let's break this up into pieces.
The first part is easy. It is legal to fly day VFR without a anticollision light system if the airplane simply doesn't have one. Aircraft were certified for years without them, and even without electrical systems to run them. That's the small 91.205(b) piece - an airplane doesn't have to have an anticollision light system in order to fly day VFR.
But 91.209 is equally clear that if an airplane has an anticollision light system it must be operating (subject to safety issues. Here's what the FAA had to say about it when it amended 91.209 (at the same time it amended Part 23 to require all aircraft certified after 1996 to have a system):
Federal Register: February 9, 1996 (Volume 61, Number 28), Page 5151-5171] (Eff 3-11-96)
==============================
Section 91.209 Aircraft Lights
Proposed new Sec. 91.209(b) would require that airplanes equipped with an anticollision light system be operated with the anticollision light system lighted during all types of operations, except when the pilot determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the interest of safety to turn the lights off.
One commenter believes that the proposal is unacceptable to aircraft operators. This commenter contends that the midair collision statistics are purely conjectural and that any safety benefits are merely guesswork. The commenter also notes that this change would affect an aircraft's dispatch capability, and questions why an airplane that is perfectly capable of being flown should be grounded from daytime flight because something, such as a lamp, is defective.
The FAA agrees that there will be incidents where an airplane will be temporarily grounded from daylight operations until a failure in the light system can be repaired. However, the additional safety cue provided to pilots by operating anticollision light systems will outweigh the cost of maintaining the light system.
The proposed revision of Sec. 91.209 is adopted as proposed.
==============================
[quote[91.205 says that if any part of the anti-collision light system is inop than only a flight to get it repaired is allowed.
[/ QUOTE ]Not really. The part of 91.205(c) that talks about flying until repair is talking about a night flight during which the system becomes inoperative:
==============================
In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operations with the aircraft may be continued to a stop where repairs or replacement can be made. [91.205(c)(3)]
==============================
It doesn't authorize you to take off with an inoperative light.
I don't see anything in the FAR that differentiates between day and night for the purpose of figuring out whether you need both or just one.
On your which one is the system and what if it has both strobes and beacon question, I'm really not sure. (BTW, I'm assuming that the aircraft equipment, TCDS, etc don't require it and it has been properly removed or deactivated and placarded under 91.213.)
The "required" system is described in 23.1401, so I guess that if the airplane has that one, it's the required one and you can forego the other. But that's only a guess. I don't really know enough about it from a systems perspective to know the answer. Maybe one of our AP friends has a clue.
CFI_Ty
New Member
Re: Beacon Inop, What do you do?
Hey thanks MidLifeFlyer. I appreciate the help, i'm a fairly new CFI and just trying to learn as much as possible. It makes it tough though when you think your right and you try to confirm it with someone else and they have a totally different answer but I think I might have this one figured out now. Thanks again and I look forward to tearing apart some more FAR's with you!
Hey thanks MidLifeFlyer. I appreciate the help, i'm a fairly new CFI and just trying to learn as much as possible. It makes it tough though when you think your right and you try to confirm it with someone else and they have a totally different answer but I think I might have this one figured out now. Thanks again and I look forward to tearing apart some more FAR's with you!
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
Re: Beacon Inop, What do you do?
Next time cfi ty, don't delete crap. Let everyone see what you wrote because what he asked was odd.
But yes, I what I wrote was wrong. I needed to look at 91.209 (b).
So right now you can't takeoff ever with anti-collision lights INOP unless 91.209 (c) becomes adopted as rule? And does anyone have a link to these proposed rules?
Next time cfi ty, don't delete crap. Let everyone see what you wrote because what he asked was odd.
But yes, I what I wrote was wrong. I needed to look at 91.209 (b).
So right now you can't takeoff ever with anti-collision lights INOP unless 91.209 (c) becomes adopted as rule? And does anyone have a link to these proposed rules?
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Re: Beacon Inop, What do you do?
[ QUOTE ]
So right now you can't takeoff ever with anti-collision lights INOP unless 91.209 (c) becomes adopted as rule? And does anyone have a link to these proposed rules?
[/ QUOTE ] What 209(c)? What did you hear about a proposed rule?
[ QUOTE ]
So right now you can't takeoff ever with anti-collision lights INOP unless 91.209 (c) becomes adopted as rule? And does anyone have a link to these proposed rules?
[/ QUOTE ] What 209(c)? What did you hear about a proposed rule?
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
Re: Beacon Inop, What do you do?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So right now you can't takeoff ever with anti-collision lights INOP unless 91.209 (c) becomes adopted as rule? And does anyone have a link to these proposed rules?
[/ QUOTE ] What 209(c)? What did you hear about a proposed rule?
[/ QUOTE ]
I misunderstood what you said. But, where would you find a notice to proposed rulemaking?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So right now you can't takeoff ever with anti-collision lights INOP unless 91.209 (c) becomes adopted as rule? And does anyone have a link to these proposed rules?
[/ QUOTE ] What 209(c)? What did you hear about a proposed rule?
[/ QUOTE ]
I misunderstood what you said. But, where would you find a notice to proposed rulemaking?
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Re: Beacon Inop, What do you do?
[ QUOTE ]
But, where would you find a notice to proposed rulemaking?
[/ QUOTE ]They are published, along with final rules, interim rules, orders, and a bunch of other stuff by every federal agency in the Federal Register that is published daily and can be accessed at http://www.gpoaccess.gov/fr/index.html
The FAA also publishes a list of the more significant ones at http://www.faa.gov/avr/arm/nprm.cfm?nav=nprm This is by no means an extensive list. The FAA publishes a new rule almost daily - every change to an approach chart involves the rulemaking process.
[ QUOTE ]
But, where would you find a notice to proposed rulemaking?
[/ QUOTE ]They are published, along with final rules, interim rules, orders, and a bunch of other stuff by every federal agency in the Federal Register that is published daily and can be accessed at http://www.gpoaccess.gov/fr/index.html
The FAA also publishes a list of the more significant ones at http://www.faa.gov/avr/arm/nprm.cfm?nav=nprm This is by no means an extensive list. The FAA publishes a new rule almost daily - every change to an approach chart involves the rulemaking process.