Ball deflected left in spin to the left?

[Zero1Niner]

I'm surprised you even know his name....I haven't run into *anyone* locally who has ever heard of him.

Wow...That's a shocker. I would have bet that most everyone flying knew who he was. Crazy.

Was he an amazing instructor?

 

[tgrayson]

Was he an amazing instructor?

You might could divide good instructors into two categories: those with exceptional interpersonal skills and those with exceptional knowledge. He was the latter. If you were not able to recognize or appreciate the knowledge, then he probably wouldn't have impressed you.

And he knew *everybody* in the aviation field; many of them would stop in Sewanee to visit him. Years later, when I was investigating some issue, I called him up and he gave me a list of phone numbers to call. One of them ended up being the chief pilot at the navy test pilot school, who gave me the information I was looking for. Priceless contacts.

 

[SuperCubRick]

Thanks for the replies!

Man this makes me feel like a 'tard - still not being able to really understand it. It just seems to me that the only forces acting on the ball are directly away from the center of rotation as well as the bank into the spin direction, that would make the ball roll to the left side of the case, but I don't get why the right one wouldn't as well, as it's being subjected to the same forces.

I also don't quite see why the aircrafts CG has anything to do with the forces acting on the ball because it isn't rotating around the CG, I'd think only the center of rotation (how far forward/aft of the panel), bank and yaw rate would be determining the ball movement.

 

[tgrayson]

Man this makes me feel like a 'tard - still not being able to really understand it.

Failure to understand is a failure on the part of the explainer, not the explainee.

I'd think only the center of rotation (how far forward/aft of the panel), bank and yaw rate would be determining the ball movement.

Move the center of rotation in front of the airplane and draw the same vector diagram that I did and you will get the same result. If you moved the center of rotation to the left or right of the cabin, then you'd get them going the same way.

As for the bank being contributory, how much does bank cause the ball to deflect in normal flight? None, as long as you're coordinated. However, roll rate would probably also move the balls to opposite sides of the airplane, because they're on opposite sides of the roll axis.

 

[SuperCubRick]

Yeah that's what I was thinking, visualize it with the force vectors pointing towards the two t/c's from the center of rotation.

Thanks, I've learned a lot from lurking this tech forum

 

[retread]

Wow...That's a shocker. I would have bet that most everyone flying knew who he was. Crazy.

:yeahthat:

 

[tgrayson]

:yeahthat:

Perhaps it's just where I live, but I don't know anyone who reads about aviation, either real books or the internet. If I say the names "Barry Schiff", "Rod Machado", or "Bill Kershner", no one knows who I'm talking about. Sort of a conversation killer.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Is that because you don't hang out with pilots, or because the pilots you hang out with are slackers who don't care to know the profession in depth?

 

[tgrayson]

the pilots you hang out with are slackers who don't care to know the profession in depth?

That.

 

[///AMG]

Sorry but I too don't know who Kershner is....does that make me unprofessional? I don't really get a hard on for CFIs/other pilots....

 

[Douglas]

I'm surprised you even know his name....I haven't run into *anyone* locally who has ever heard of him.

This book http://www.amazon.com/Flight-Instru...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229188999&sr=1-3
of his has saved my butt many times when a "different type" of student shows up at the airport and I don't have the experience how to get through to him.

I would suggest ever brand new CFI get it.

 

[Orange Anchor]

I'm surprised you even know his name....I haven't run into *anyone* locally who has ever heard of him.

That's as bad as when we were sitting at the end of intersecting runways and a polished P-51 landed and rolled out. The copilot said (in complete honesty), "Nice looking homebuilt..."

The lack of appreciation for history is at times surprising.

 

[Polar742]

That's as bad as when we were sitting at the end of intersecting runways and a polished P-51 landed and rolled out. The copilot said (in complete honesty), "Nice looking homebuilt..."

The lack of appreciation for history is at times surprising.

Did you look over and say: "My leg. Well, from now on, when we're together, they're all my legs....":yar:

Good to see you back on here!!

 

[Orange Anchor]

Did you look over and say: "My leg. Well, from now on, when we're together, they're all my legs....":yar:

Good to see you back on here!!

No.. I just figured there was a lot of 'mentoring' that needed to take place.

Sometimes it just makes no sense. I had a French fellow (green card) in the sim once and he had flown Super Etendards off the boat. But his performance checking out on the Boeing was eye-watering. I was amazed he had not become a red smear earlier in his life and could not figure out how he had made it x yrs as a F/O.

(No, he did not get recommended in the allotted boxes in the syllabus but later did.)

But Kershner? That's like not knowing Langewiesche (the old guy) or DP Davies or having never even scanned some of Aero for Naval Aviators. ????

 

[///AMG]

That's like not knowing Langewiesche (the old guy) or DP Davies or having never even scanned some of Aero for Naval Aviators. ????

Yes on 1, no on 2, and more than I care to on 3. I must be missing out

As a semi-related bit of trivia, I found it to be a bit ironic, when I went through Navy preflight indoc., that we don't even officially use "Aero for Naval Aviators" anymore in flight school. Instead we get this extremely dumbed down, unbound workbook/text. I do however have my father's old 1958 edition Aero for Naval Aviators from his flight school days, sitting on my bookshelf, so not all is lost

 

[Orange Anchor]

Yes on 1, no on 2, and more than I care to on 3. I must be missing out

As a semi-related bit of trivia, I found it to be a bit ironic, when I went through Navy preflight indoc., that we don't even officially use "Aero for Naval Aviators" anymore in flight school. Instead we get this extremely dumbed down, unbound workbook/text. I do however have my father's old 1958 edition Aero for Naval Aviators from his flight school days, sitting on my bookshelf, so not all is lost

Davies wrote a ground breaker on "Handling the Big Jets" explaining what was happening and why. Still a good primer.

As for things being dumbed down, to an extent I can understand the shift so that one does not build the electrical system anymore but the emphasis on 'just put the light out' does not help the new aviator.

Checklists are not foolproof or without error and an understanding of the logic behind the system is important. I was somewhat surprised that guys could not explain the defaults or modes in the VNAV system which differs in the early Boeings and Airbus... ie

And I would like to know the real story of the 757 with the stby bus problem that went into ORD a few weeks ago. Did the crew NOT follow the checklist or was there a flaw in the checklist?

 

[ppragman]

Did you look over and say: "My leg. Well, from now on, when we're together, they're all my legs....":yar:

Good to see you back on here!!

:yup::yup::yup::yup:

 

[CaptainTeezy]

Assume a spin to the LEFT. The LEFT wing is falling more than it is going foward relative to the right wing. So the left ball will fall to the left. Since the RIGHT wing is going more foward than down relative to the left wing the right ball will be slung to the outside.

IS THIS CORRECT???

 

[tgrayson]

Assume a spin to the LEFT. The LEFT wing is falling more than it is going foward relative to the right wing. So the left ball will fall to the left. Since the RIGHT wing is going more foward than down relative to the left wing the right ball will be slung to the outside.

IS THIS CORRECT???

The situation I drew was a flat spin in order to keep the analysis simple. This spin consists of yaw only, sorta like a frisbee, so neither wing is "falling". If, by "falling", you mean "rolling", I don't think the result would change, although the picture would look different.

 

[Realms09]

Another note:

Ball readings will be different during the incipient vs. established phases of the spin. For instance, in tgrayson's idealized pure flat spin both inclinometers will show a deflection to the right at the beginning of the spin and then show opposite indications in an established spin.

Most importantly, just look outside. Upright or inverted tracking the nose yawing across the horizon will show you the direction of the spin.