Bad Handoffs?!

[mshunter]

Today I was on my way back from a x-country through the Tejon pass at 7.5, and kept getting handed off to the next controler, and haveing areas of almost no radio reception. It was horrible! I was in a 150, so there was 10 minutes in between where I was not in contact with anyone.

Two questions--
1: Why was I not denied services when I would be out of comm reception for so long. I tried to cancel, and was more or less denied? Didn't understand this.

2: I asked for Alaska 852 (I think) to relay a message for me. Does this tick off the controler? Is it allowed?

 

[MikeD]

Today I was on my way back from a x-country through the Tejon pass at 7.5, and kept getting handed off to the next controler, and haveing areas of almost no radio reception. It was horrible! I was in a 150, so there was 10 minutes in between where I was not in contact with anyone.

Two questions--
1: Why was I not denied services when I would be out of comm reception for so long. I tried to cancel, and was more or less denied? Didn't understand this.

2: I asked for Alaska 852 (I think) to relay a message for me. Does this tick off the controler? Is it allowed?

1. Don't know for sure.

2. Perfectly fine and allowed; any reasonable means to establish comms.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

I've had other aircraft rely messages to me from controllers and from me to the controllers it is perfectly acceptable. Controllers usually know the airspace so well and know when communications will drop off and should warn you about it ahead of time.

 

[hack1982]

I had the same thing going on the other day. Flying around high terrain, comms came and went. No big deal, we were vfr, and just picked up services when we could. It would have been helpful if they had advised us we might lose contact, that way we wouldn't have called every five or ten mins...

 

[boondr]

Today I was on my way back from a x-country through the Tejon pass at 7.5, and kept getting handed off to the next controler, and haveing areas of almost no radio reception. It was horrible! I was in a 150, so there was 10 minutes in between where I was not in contact with anyone.

Two questions--
1: Why was I not denied services when I would be out of comm reception for so long. I tried to cancel, and was more or less denied? Didn't understand this.

2: I asked for Alaska 852 (I think) to relay a message for me. Does this tick off the controler? Is it allowed?

1.Not sure of the situation so I don't have any info on it.

2. I use other aircraft to relay stuff occasionally when I have to but one thing we are not allowed to accept through relay is an IFR cancellation. That has to be done by the pilot to us or flight service, with acknowledgement.

 

[BajtheJino]

2. I use other aircraft to relay stuff occasionally when I have to but one thing we are not allowed to accept through relay is an IFR cancellation. That has to be done by the pilot to us or flight service, with acknowledgement.

Really? I have done this for and have had it done for me quite a bit.

 

[ATC RET 2003]

We used to do it as well everywhere I've worked. Maybe it's a PCT-specific rule... from what I have read, they're different in many ways.

 

[boondr]

Really? I have done this for and have had it done for me quite a bit.

We used to do it as well everywhere I've worked. Maybe it's a PCT-specific rule... from what I have read, they're different in many ways.

Actually it is some new thing that came out a few months ago, apparently somewhere in Hawaii a relayed cancellation got screwed up where the AC ID was mistaken. The plane that the controller thought had cancelled, but hadn't, crashed and SAR didn't get initiated until hours later when the Company called looking for their plane. (this is my best recollection of the scenario a few details may be off).

Basically we can't accept the cancellation relayed through another pilot because the relaying pilot has no responsibility to the situation.

 

[papag]

Today I was on my way back from a x-country through the Tejon pass at 7.5, and kept getting handed off to the next controler, and haveing areas of almost no radio reception. It was horrible! I was in a 150, so there was 10 minutes in between where I was not in contact with anyone.

Two questions--
1: Why was I not denied services when I would be out of comm reception for so long. I tried to cancel, and was more or less denied? Didn't understand this.

2: I asked for Alaska 852 (I think) to relay a message for me. Does this tick off the controler? Is it allowed?

Denied cancellation????? Seems odd. We have areas that I inform pilots of no comm, I simply advise them its coming up and leave it up to them. If they choose to cancel I issue them the next freq. and approx when they can reach them to reestablish services. Relays are fine with me but Im a stickler for exact/full call signs etc. Otherwise I follow thru as tho there was no cancelation etc.

 

[cmill]

Today I was on my way back from a x-country through the Tejon pass at 7.5, and kept getting handed off to the next controler, and haveing areas of almost no radio reception. It was horrible! I was in a 150, so there was 10 minutes in between where I was not in contact with anyone.

Two questions--
1: Why was I not denied services when I would be out of comm reception for so long. I tried to cancel, and was more or less denied? Didn't understand this.

2: I asked for Alaska 852 (I think) to relay a message for me. Does this tick off the controler? Is it allowed?

1. The only time i know of when a controller can actually deny any type of cancellation is IFR at FL180+, and of course if u were IMC, but thats another topic. I think most controllers are glad to stop VFR flight following, and if they say no, just punch in 1200 and tell them good day.

2. Not that i know of, pilots/controllers do it all the time. Anything it takes to get a message through.

 

[rd757]

I was handed off to CLE_CTR up in the thumb of MI on a VFR w/ Flight following. I was at about 3,500 when handed off, there was no way I was going to raise them at that altitude and I was informed I was going in and out on radar. So I just relayed through a Mesaba in the and all was swell.

RD

 

[Juliet Lima]

1. A controller cannot cancel for you. It is much preferred for you to cancel yourself if you intend to enter a bad reception area.

Two questions--
1: Why was I not denied services when I would be out of comm reception for so long. I tried to cancel, and was more or less denied? Didn't understand this.

A controller cannot cancel for you. It is much preferred for you to cancel yourself if you intend to enter a bad reception area.

2: I asked for Alaska 852 (I think) to relay a message for me. Does this tick off the controler? Is it allowed?

It does NOT tick of the controller, at least not a normal controller. If you get a jerk then it could tick them off. It is absolutely allowed. In fact, in some areas it is the only way to communicate. Other than using FSS and a phone line. That is usually an inefficient way of communication.

After reading your scenario, I'm guessing you were on VFR flight following. IFR is completely different and that is what I was talking about above. But, if you were receiving VFR flight following services, you should ask to cancel services well before you reach the grapevine. If you already know you'll be in a bad reception area then by all means cancel your flight following services.

Playing devils advocate...the controller SHOULD be much more proficient in radar and radio coverage in that area. They should have known that they were going to lose you on either radios or radar through that area at the altitude you were at. They should be responsible for terminating your services too. Maybe they were just going to let you run the ridge on your own and re-acquire you on the other side as you approach the very busy airspace that is the LA basin.

 

[Sunburn]

BFL TRACON/Joshua Approach (I don't remember which it is at that point) knows about the spotty comms area around Tejon, one reason if you land at Quail Lake (I know it is a PVT airport) you need to call RUI FSS and inform them of you canceling, I have had them relay thru Gorman before.

 

[rd757]

Also, we FNT_APP refuses to handoff to DTW_APP, so we have to pick up FF from DTW right after FNT drops us off. I talked to some DTW TRACON controllers and they said they don't know why FNT does that, they don't care if they get the handoff or not since there is a SAT APP position... But they woud prefer if they did so they don't have to restart FF and clog up the radios. Everytime out of the DTW area (I fly out of YIP) DTW_APP will hand off to FNT no problem...weird..

RD

 

[Sunburn]

Also, we FNT_APP refuses to handoff to DTW_APP, so we have to pick up FF from DTW right after FNT drops us off. I talked to some DTW TRACON controllers and they said they don't know why FNT does that, they don't care if they get the handoff or not since there is a SAT APP position... But they woud prefer if they did so they don't have to restart FF and clog up the radios. Everytime out of the DTW area (I fly out of YIP) DTW_APP will hand off to FNT no problem...weird..

RD

Some TRACON's do some funny things, that and I was looking at the maps, BFL, SCT and Joshua all come together in that area, so if the controller didn't know exactly which airspace OP were going into, he/she may not of handed OP off because he didn't want to give the OP to SCT, plus VFR FF codes if given local codes i.e. 0345 cannot be handed off outside of that TRACON's airspace, center codes i.e. 4321 can be handed off. It honestly could be one of a hundred reasons for both your and the OP's issue.

 

[rd757]

Some TRACON's do some funny things, that and I was looking at the maps, BFL, SCT and Joshua all come together in that area, so if the controller didn't know exactly which airspace OP were going into, he/she may not of handed OP off because he didn't want to give the OP to SCT, plus VFR FF codes if given local codes i.e. 0345 cannot be handed off outside of that TRACON's airspace, center codes i.e. 4321 can be handed off. It honestly could be one of a hundred reasons for both your and the OP's issue.

It was just interesting, since we asked the DTW Tracon and they said "well we don't really know why they don't, but they never have..."
RD

 

[genot]

Also, we FNT_APP refuses to handoff to DTW_APP, so we have to pick up FF from DTW right after FNT drops us off. I talked to some DTW TRACON controllers and they said they don't know why FNT does that, they don't care if they get the handoff or not since there is a SAT APP position... But they woud prefer if they did so they don't have to restart FF and clog up the radios. Everytime out of the DTW area (I fly out of YIP) DTW_APP will hand off to FNT no problem...weird..

RD

We were having a discussion about that at my facility this week. Every ex center controller we have falls into the if headed to a center sector terminate and let the center enter the VFR FF info because it is easier for them to do that at a center than in a TRACON. As far as to other approaches, some controllers won't put a VFR in the system because they've had occasions where the VFR terminated FF and landed elsewhere. When the VFR plane doesn't show up, it puts the controller on the spot when they get the 20 questions about hey did you work this guy, when, where, how what etc. Some won't do it just because they don't feel obligated to do it.

Personally if they're landing in the adjacent approach's airspace I won't enter them in the NAS, but I'll do a manual handoff if I'm not busy. I find it is easier to position correllate and manually tag than enter all the info on the keypad.