Bad Day for the AWACS

MikeD said:
How many KC-135s are there that are receiver capable? Aren't there a few?
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Yeah, all here at McConnell. There are 8 of them (out of 400 some-odd total KC-135's still in the USAF/Guard/Reserve fleets). Obviously the guys who get qualified on those do both sides of the equation, but that's a small percentage of the guys.
 
Cool info Fish, I learned something here. I've noticed on the KC and/or Omega 707's that they normally ratchet up the turn, and it makes you initially overcorrect......I just always thought it was me being ham-fisted :)
 
///AMG said:
Cool info Fish, I learned something here. I've noticed on the KC and/or Omega 707's that they normally ratchet up the turn, and it makes you initially overcorrect......I just always thought it was me being ham-fisted :)
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Not you, man, it's us. Nothing we can really do about it unfortunately.

Hopefully the KC-46 will have a better autopilot.
 
fish314 said:
Not you, man, it's us. Nothing we can really do about it unfortunately.

Hopefully the KC-46 will have a better autopilot.
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I've also yet to hit a KC-10....I hear they are much nicer. Actually, the Omega jets are pretty vanilla as well, aside from the turning tendency that you noted. You can slam the probe into them just about as hard and carelessly as you can with a KC-130 with no consequence. Believe me, I have taken some questionable jabs :)
 
///AMG said:
Cool info Fish, I learned something here. I've noticed on the KC and/or Omega 707's that they normally ratchet up the turn, and it makes you initially overcorrect......I just always thought it was me being ham-fisted :)
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Ive never noticed the ratcheted-up turn of the -135.

So //AMG....the -135 crew was giving you a run for your money BFM-wise? :D
 
///AMG said:
I've also yet to hit a KC-10....I hear they are much nicer.
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Personally, I prefer the 10 significantly to the 135. It is a combination of where the engines are (remember, the Eagle has the receptacle in the left shoulder, so you are flying right of centerline. In the -135, this means that the top of the right tail sits slightly in engine #3's wake. In the '10, the engine is out further on the wing) and that the '10 also has the powered boom, which makes a difference in holding position.

Since we were talking about 135s that can receive, I thought this would be an appropriate time to post this shot of whales humping:

DSC_2643.jpg
 
Hacker15e said:
Personally, I prefer the 10 significantly to the 135. It is a combination of where the engines are (remember, the Eagle has the receptacle in the left shoulder, so you are flying right of centerline. In the -135, this means that the top of the right tail sits slightly in engine #3's wake. In the '10, the engine is out further on the wing. The '10 also has the powered boom, which makes a difference in holding position.
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The -10 also has the trending, labled, and much brighter director light system. With the -135, you have to remember the D-F-U-A pneumonic in order to remember what the director lights are telling you. Was helpful in the F-117, where the A/R receptacle is behind the cockpit; but all director lights were pretty much useless in the A-10, where the A/R door was in front of the windscreen. In the -117, all I had to do was park in position. In the A-10, some boomers seemingly wanted me to self-plug and would never seem to reach-out and make the plug themselves until the very last second. Of course, with the A/R receptacle up front, whenever I got a -135 with a leaky boom knuckle, I wouldn't be able to see anything out front while connected, due to all the fuel spray all over the windscreen. Made for fun times. One thing I hated on the KC-10 when in the A-10, was the two stupid white receptacle illuminator lights at the end of their probe that they'd use for the boomer to help see the A/R receptacle on the receiver. Sure, it's useful for when the A/R door is behind me like on the -117, but Id get boomers who'd use is on the A-10 at night, and blind the hell out of me with it. :)
 
MikeD said:
The -10 also has the trending, labled, and much brighter director light system. With the -135, you have to remember the D-F-U-A pneumonic in order to remember what the director lights are telling you. Was helpful in the F-117, where the A/R receptacle is behind the cockpit; but all director lights were pretty much useless in the A-10, where the A/R door was in front of the windscreen. In the -117, all I had to do was park in position. In the A-10, some boomers seemingly wanted me to self-plug and would never seem to reach-out and make the plug themselves until the very last second. Of course, with the A/R receptacle up front, whenever I got a -135 with a leaky boom knuckle, I wouldn't be able to see anything out front while connected, due to all the fuel spray all over the windscreen. Made for fun times. One thing I hated on the KC-10 when in the A-10, was the two stupid white receptacle illuminator lights at the end of their probe that they'd use for the boomer to help see the A/R receptacle on the receiver. Sure, it's useful for when the A/R door is behind me like on the -117, but Id get boomers who'd use is on the A-10 at night, and blind the hell out of me with it. :)
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I finally had a chance to see refueling from the other side three weeks ago (I'm not qual'ed on the refuelable 135, but I was getting some other training that night). I can see what you mean about the PDI lights on our jet, though. They do suck. I've seen them on the walk-around, of course, but that was during the day and from literally inches away while examining the bottom of the plane... not from 25-30 feet back.

Another little piece of info for the receivers out there about the PDI lights. They have no automatic functions. If the "UP" or "DOWN" light comes on (or forward or aft, for that matter), it's because the boom operator flipped (or held) a spring-loaded switch that says UP or DOWN or AFT or FWD. Since he's got one hand on the boom control stick and the other on the telescope extension lever (and none of those switches are on either the stick or the telescoping lever), you don't get much trending from the lights on the -135. Pretty much just a signal from the boom to move in the direction of the light, and only when he's got a spare second to take his hand off the telescoping lever or to try to hit the switch by stretching his thumb with the rest of his left hand still on the telescoping lever.
 
///AMG said:
I've also yet to hit a KC-10....I hear they are much nicer. Actually, the Omega jets are pretty vanilla as well, aside from the turning tendency that you noted. You can slam the probe into them just about as hard and carelessly as you can with a KC-130 with no consequence. Believe me, I have taken some questionable jabs :)
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Yeah, I hear you Navy guys refer to our Boom-Drogue Adapter (the basket that hangs off of the boom) as the "Iron Maiden," and I know of several occasions where -135's have come back with probes still in them. The other option is the MPRS pods (multi-point refueling system)... but that system is a worthless piece of crap.
 
fish314 said:
Another little piece of info for the receivers out there about the PDI lights. They have no automatic functions. If the "UP" or "DOWN" light comes on (or forward or aft, for that matter), it's because the boom operator flipped (or held) a spring-loaded switch that says UP or DOWN or AFT or FWD. Since he's got one hand on the boom control stick and the other on the telescope extension lever (and none of those switches are on either the stick or the telescoping lever), you don't get much trending from the lights on the -135. Pretty much just a signal from the boom to move in the direction of the light, and only when he's got a spare second to take his hand off the telescoping lever or to try to hit the switch by stretching his thumb with the rest of his left hand still on the telescoping lever.
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Did you see your -135 lights, or the KC-10 lights? Yes, the -135 lights simply move from center indication, to next indication, to edge indication.....all with no trending. The -10s PDI are like an aircraft carrier ball style, that "slides" along the track from green to yellow to red as it gets towards the limits. And, they're labled by the same illumination as to which one they are. Both aircraft were fine to me, as A/R is A/R; it was just interesting seeing how far along the technology of the PDI systems had come between the two jets.
 
MikeD said:
Did you see your -135 lights, or the KC-10 lights? Yes, the -135 lights simply move from center indication, to next indication, to edge indication.....all with no trending. The -10s PDI are like an aircraft carrier ball style, that "slides" along the track from green to yellow to red as it gets towards the limits. And, they're labled by the same illumination as to which one they are. Both aircraft were fine to me, as A/R is A/R; it was just interesting seeing how far along the technology of the PDI systems had come between the two jets.
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135 lights. I was in the jump seat of a refuelable -135 taking gas off of another -135.
 
MikeD said:
Ive never noticed the ratcheted-up turn of the -135.
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Mike, it is way more pronounced with the heavier receivers. With fighters, we usually keep a fairly quick roll rate (0 to 15-25 degrees AOB in about 5 seconds) since we know you can keep up. Even with A-10s and their relatively slow AR speed, you can keep a fairly quick roll rate. With a heavy receiver, the roll rate is from 0 to 10-15 degrees AOB in about 10 seconds, and that usually is accompanied with a call by the boom of "the receiver is moving aft" as a result of the roll. As fish stated about our roll knob, how much the A/P shakes left and right when moved out of the detent depends on the jet, but some are way worse than others.

One thing to note about this video though, take a look at the right wing: it appears to be one of the NATO birds. Definitely not known as the best receiver pilots in the world. I've had these guys attempt to do their best kamikaze impression on the end of my boom before. The fact that this guy was nowhere near stable in his closure from astern to contact should have been clue #2 that the boom should have let him calm down and stabilize at precontact for a while (first clue being that he was flying the NATO wacker..). It appears that the E-3 starts moving towards the upper limit with a vengeance after the boom punches him off for being unstable -- potentially due to too much nose up trim? -- clicking off the autopilot, while the tail of the tanker quickly moves closer to the receiver jet. Bad situation. Tanker executes the breakaway, probably did some climbing as well, and minus the potential for the boom losing a few teeth, they lived to fly another day. Hopefully that descent by the E-3 didn't do any damage.
 
boilert said:
Mike, it is way more pronounced with the heavier receivers. With fighters, we usually keep a fairly quick roll rate (0 to 15-25 degrees AOB in about 5 seconds) since we know you can keep up. Even with A-10s and their relatively slow AR speed, you can keep a fairly quick roll rate. With a heavy receiver, the roll rate is from 0 to 10-15 degrees AOB in about 10 seconds, and that usually is accompanied with a call by the boom of "the receiver is moving aft" as a result of the roll. As fish stated about our roll knob, how much the A/P shakes left and right when moved out of the detent depends on the jet, but some are way worse than others.
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Thats kind of what I figured, in terms of being something a heavier receiver would notice than a lighter one. Makes sense.

One thing to note about this video though, take a look at the right wing: it appears to be one of the NATO birds. Definitely not known as the best receiver pilots in the world. I've had these guys attempt to do their best kamikaze impression on the end of my boom before. The fact that this guy was nowhere near stable in his closure from astern to contact should have been clue #2 that the boom should have let him calm down and stabilize at precontact for a while (first clue being that he was flying the NATO wacker..). It appears that the E-3 starts moving towards the upper limit with a vengeance after the boom punches him off for being unstable -- potentially due to too much nose up trim? -- clicking off the autopilot, while the tail of the tanker quickly moves closer to the receiver jet. Bad situation. Tanker executes the breakaway, probably did some climbing as well, and minus the potential for the boom losing a few teeth, they lived to fly another day. Hopefully that descent by the E-3 didn't do any damage.
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Could be a USAF guy out of Tinker on exchange too. :D

Yes, like I'd mentioned before, the boomer never should've attempted the plug, as the E-3 wasn't slowly drifting into contact, like planes normally do if they're not completely stabilized; he stil had a good clip of closure going, and the boomer still attempted the contact. If the boomer hadn't been able to disconnect when he did, it would've been interesting to see the E-3 shove that boom to its innermost stop, and beyond......
 
MikeD said:
While probe and drogue A/R is definitely challenging, boom A/R isn't as easy as one would think, as it has its own set of challenges that go with it.
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Probe and drogue only comes in two flavors IMO, stupid easy and "YGTBSM!!!" Stupid easy days are usually during the winter months and/or over the ocean on clear days where you've got gobs of power and the absence of thermals/turbs make for a basket that sits there waiting for you to plug.

YGTBSM days are...well, there's Kirtland in the summer time for starters. There's HC-130 guys who can't stomach flying so close to stall speed in thermals/turbs, so they slowly inch the speed up to 115-120kts at high DA so you're pulling 105% before you start your run-in. And then there's those wonderful nights where they're flying the join-up cross-cockpit and your FE's calls sound like, "Tanker's 4 o'clock for a billion. If he gets any wider, we'll be at the end of the track by the time we get over there." There's not much that makes me more angry than -130 dudes who fly the join-up at .5DME abeam.
 
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