Aviator
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kellwolf
Piece of Trash
The best way to settle on a flight school is to actually go there. IMO, get a group of about 10 different schools that are a mix of local FBOs and academy type places. Rank them in order of how you think you like them, then visit the top 5. If you don't like what you see (or you have some extra time and cash) keep going to the other 5 or however many others you want to see. Re-organize your list based on those visits. Now, go visit your top 3 again.
You wouldn't pick a college based on their website, and you should be just as picky and cautious (if not more) with a flight school.
As far as the Aviator, the about the same as other schools such as ATP and Skymates. It's gonna come down to what works best for the individual.
You wouldn't pick a college based on their website, and you should be just as picky and cautious (if not more) with a flight school.
As far as the Aviator, the about the same as other schools such as ATP and Skymates. It's gonna come down to what works best for the individual.
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat:
Cruise
Well-Known Member
I went to the Aviator.......and would recommend it. However, like others have said, you should absolutely visit a couple schools before you decide anything. Just because a particular school is good for one person, doesn't mean it'll be a good experience for another person. To each, his(her) own.
That being said, the Aviator, like any other flight school, is far from perfect. However, you do get what you pay for.....LOTS OF MULTI-TIME.
The owner, Mike, can be a gigantic baby if he's not getting "his" way every minute of every day. But, it's "his" business.....so, I guess that gives him the right to act that way.
TJ, another co-owner (or whatever she is) can be the meanest, nastiest, SOB around. She generally not very nice to the instructors and isn't very nice to the students either. Again, it's her business and she can run it any way she wants.
The instructors generally want the students to succeed and finish on time and w/in budget. I actually finished ahead of schedule. You should be able to finish whatever ratings you're going for w/in the quoted price by Mike. He means what he says as far as money goes. He truely expects you to finish w/in the budget. There are no "hidden" charges.
All things being equal....despite the many negatives, I would recommend the school to anyone. I logged tons of multi-hours and that IS one of the reasons I was able to move on to the next step in my flying career.
That being said, the Aviator, like any other flight school, is far from perfect. However, you do get what you pay for.....LOTS OF MULTI-TIME.
The owner, Mike, can be a gigantic baby if he's not getting "his" way every minute of every day. But, it's "his" business.....so, I guess that gives him the right to act that way.
TJ, another co-owner (or whatever she is) can be the meanest, nastiest, SOB around. She generally not very nice to the instructors and isn't very nice to the students either. Again, it's her business and she can run it any way she wants.
The instructors generally want the students to succeed and finish on time and w/in budget. I actually finished ahead of schedule. You should be able to finish whatever ratings you're going for w/in the quoted price by Mike. He means what he says as far as money goes. He truely expects you to finish w/in the budget. There are no "hidden" charges.
All things being equal....despite the many negatives, I would recommend the school to anyone. I logged tons of multi-hours and that IS one of the reasons I was able to move on to the next step in my flying career.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I agree that it's their businesses, but I don't agree with the "they can run it any way they want." It sounds (to me) like they treat the instructors like people they really don't want there instead of former customers or ambassadors for the school. If they keep running the business like that, eventually a lot of instructors will either up and quit leaving them without instructors to finish the current student load or enough instructors will bad mouth the school that people will stop coming there. I heard horror stories about Mike from students that left Ari for Skymates, but I try to take those with a grain of salt since the student might be angry for one reason or another. I was never treated with anything other than respect as an instructor, and it was an independently owned school as well. If I treat the owner with respect, I expect respect in return, whether they like to run the business their way or not.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Where you train will not get you a job, or get you an interview with the airlines.
Who started all that crap? DCA? ATP? I got all my interviews because friends helped me out, not because of where I trained. Heck nobody that I've interviewed had ever heard of where I worked.
EDIT: I know this is coming next; no, if you work for CAL Express it WILL NOT get you an interview at CAL. Working for Ameriflight WILL NOT get you an interview at UPS. THERE IS NO FLOW THROUGH ANYWHERE.
Who started all that crap? DCA? ATP? I got all my interviews because friends helped me out, not because of where I trained. Heck nobody that I've interviewed had ever heard of where I worked.
EDIT: I know this is coming next; no, if you work for CAL Express it WILL NOT get you an interview at CAL. Working for Ameriflight WILL NOT get you an interview at UPS. THERE IS NO FLOW THROUGH ANYWHERE.
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
Correct!
Incorrect. Respectfully...
Yeah... we used to have a flow through up until last year. The truth of the matter is... it was more restricting for us than "open season". They would take guys in seniority order at a rate of like 4 or 5 XJTers for every 10 candidates. That equalled very slow movement and guys that were years back on the seniority list and had the qualifications were barred from applying due to the flow through. We would have Captains who didn't have the seniority for the flow through leave XJT to go to work for another airline for a month or two and then get an interview at CAL since they were no longer restricted with the flow through. It was messed up.
Now... CAL is actually hiring more of our guys than when we had a flow through. Open Season... it's better in the long run!
Bob
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
She's doing great! Life's a bit hectic right now... but my total time off from work will be have been 30 days by the time it's all said and done due to stragic vacation bidding and one dropped trip. So life's not too bad.
I'll post pics in the announcements section.
Hey... I get 27 hour overnights in LAX every so often... where are you in SOCAL?
Bob
I'll post pics in the announcements section.
Hey... I get 27 hour overnights in LAX every so often... where are you in SOCAL?
Bob
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
compass has (or should I say "will have"
) a flow thru (mainline NWA senority #)EDITED to add: I would have to say depending on where you train, you have different options. IE a UND grad pretty much has a good shot at Horizon with greatly reduced mins that aren't available to joe schmoe who did their training at Bob's Flight Training in central Alabama.
ERAU grads get a crack at Eagle when they hit 500/100 (I had a few friends exercise this option).
This is just to name a few.
But I do ALSO agree that having connections where you want to go is worth more than going to a place that says they have the ability to "get you hired".
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Ah, but here's the trick with that. It's only for furloughed NWA guys, who would have had re-call rights anyway. If you get hired at Compass (assuming it ever gets off the ground) from the outside, you'll get a preferrential INTERVIEW, not a flow through job.
Eagle still TECHNICALLY has a flow through, so even if the Compass deal turns out to be like Eagle has, it's probably gonna work just like Capt Bob said with XJT. It'll be bottlenecked so badly, you'd be better off going to another airline. Then again, with how NWA is going, you might be better off going to another airline anyway.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"Where you train will not get you a job, or get you an interview with the airlines."
ATP marketing wants you to believe training with them will get you the job. It's all over their website. Capt Bob will say it's not so but it sure looks that way to me. That's why I had to laugh when the some of the guys in the ATP PCL ad didn't get seniority numbers, how that turned out was poetic. ATP marketing shouldn't count their chickens until their hatched. Every airline pilot knows that's what getting hired really is....though it makes for great marketing fluff.
I just wish these big academies didn't have marketing practices that make those of us who have been in the biz a while cringe when we see it. I know I do...
ATP marketing wants you to believe training with them will get you the job. It's all over their website. Capt Bob will say it's not so but it sure looks that way to me. That's why I had to laugh when the some of the guys in the ATP PCL ad didn't get seniority numbers, how that turned out was poetic. ATP marketing shouldn't count their chickens until their hatched. Every airline pilot knows that's what getting hired really is....though it makes for great marketing fluff.
I just wish these big academies didn't have marketing practices that make those of us who have been in the biz a while cringe when we see it. I know I do...
greaper007
Well-Known Member
Aviator's new website is pretty decent. However, beyond pricing and getting to see a few former instructors. It doesn't give you a great feel for the school. Just come on down here and visit. They'll put you up for the night and I'll get to take you out for a free dinner (free for me too, not that I wouldn't do it just for your company). We fly a ton, and it's all multi-time. I just hit 500 hours total time, 345 multi-engine. Which means I have more multi-engine time than single engine. You're not going to find very many pilot's with that kind of logbook. Even if you don't stay to instruct you'll be sitting at 200 hours of multi-engine. Not to mention we're about the cheapest place anywhere, you'll more than likely finish on budget.
Time wise, when I first got here there was a backup in the system. It took me about a year to finish. A lot of that was my fault, but it was the status quo at the time. There doesn't seem to be a back up in the system at all now. One guy just finished everything in four months, another dude is moving through in 3 months (looks like he'll do it too). Granted these dudes were pretty hard core. All of my students seem to be on the perfect 6 month plan.
With that in mind, being a student here isn't a bad experience at all. Most of the complaints you hear about the place is from people that work there. I'd really rather not comment about that sort of stuff on an open forum while I'm still employed there. Which doesn't mean I have bad stuff to say, just that I don't think it's appropriate for me at this time.
Time wise, when I first got here there was a backup in the system. It took me about a year to finish. A lot of that was my fault, but it was the status quo at the time. There doesn't seem to be a back up in the system at all now. One guy just finished everything in four months, another dude is moving through in 3 months (looks like he'll do it too). Granted these dudes were pretty hard core. All of my students seem to be on the perfect 6 month plan.
With that in mind, being a student here isn't a bad experience at all. Most of the complaints you hear about the place is from people that work there. I'd really rather not comment about that sort of stuff on an open forum while I'm still employed there. Which doesn't mean I have bad stuff to say, just that I don't think it's appropriate for me at this time.
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
Don, I guess it's somantics... getting a job offer to me means you are hired. It's that way in almost every industry in the nation. Now in ours, I concede that, as you state, it's all about getting a seniority number... which based on your insight... no one can say they are hired until they've passed their Checkride, since that's when they officially go on the payroll and get their seniority number. I'm not arguing that's a fact... but come on... that's like saying I don't own my house because I owe the bank $XX.XXX. Can I not call myself a "homeowner"? Once you are in training... the job is "your's to lose", can we at least agree on that?
I only brought that subject up originally (several weeks ago in the PCL thread), not to say "See ATP works", but rather because not once have I seen you in the member's announcements section tellling people that they didn't really get hired when they announce they got the job offers from SkyWest, Alaska, PCL, XJT, Colgan, etc...
As for your other comment about me above... I truly don't believe I have ever said that ATP will get you the job... or that their marketing isn't jilted to that edge. Why bring me into it that way? All I've ever done is tell my experience at ATP, and attempt to correct mis-informed remarks about my aviation "alma-mater", in addition to giving advice to people who are seeking it without slanting that advice toward ATP unless that's where they were leaning to begin with. I still, to this day, will suggest an FBO or smaller flight school if I feel it's in the best interest of those future aviators.
Bob
blee256
Well-Known Member
DE727 and Capt bob,
i would have to agree with both of you......Being in a hiring pool used to be the story of my life. I was sitting in one for 9 months at one airline and 6 months in the pool with another. When my friends would ask me about the interview, I would say yeah i got hired, so their reply would be so when do you start? uumm....i dont know. So i started telling people, well i got offered the job and I will start once they have their next class.....people associate getting "hired" with becoming an employee, so in that sense, it doesnt work because we can all agree that we definitely arent considered employees of the company. But when you "successfully pass" the interview process, what are you supposed to call it?
i would have to agree with both of you......Being in a hiring pool used to be the story of my life. I was sitting in one for 9 months at one airline and 6 months in the pool with another. When my friends would ask me about the interview, I would say yeah i got hired, so their reply would be so when do you start? uumm....i dont know. So i started telling people, well i got offered the job and I will start once they have their next class.....people associate getting "hired" with becoming an employee, so in that sense, it doesnt work because we can all agree that we definitely arent considered employees of the company. But when you "successfully pass" the interview process, what are you supposed to call it?
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"or that their marketing isn't jilted to that edge"
I don't know, it's just me, but I could never defend a place that has marketing that's, "jilted to the edge", as you put it. That sort of thing doesn't set well with me (see my posting history since day one at JC). I'm sure I'd understand it better if I was in your shoes. Perhaps I'm too......idealistic.
I don't know, it's just me, but I could never defend a place that has marketing that's, "jilted to the edge", as you put it. That sort of thing doesn't set well with me (see my posting history since day one at JC). I'm sure I'd understand it better if I was in your shoes. Perhaps I'm too......idealistic.
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
Over 4,000 posts!?? Nahhh... perhaps I'm too......tired.
I think we both have had some great conversations and understand each other more than we'd probably like to... even if we don't see eye to eye on everything. You're a stand up guy... no question.
Bob