moxiepilot
Well-Known Member
yes, i too know cirrus drivers with that exact mentality.
Aviation Consumer: Cirrus Safety Record Just Average
- Thread starter Mike H
- Start date
Pilotforhire587
Lycra Man
Its hard to kill yourself in a glider if you know how to fly... The DA40 has the slowest touch down speed of any of the aforementioned aircraft, Slower speed means what ever you may hit on an emergency landing will have a smaller impact on you.
Yes, absolutely, I know a few cirrus owners who have the, "I can just pull the Chute" mentality and I used to cringe when I see there wives and kids get in the plane with them.
This actually says a lot about the DA40, the demographic and experience level of pilots flying DA40 probably equates an equal or less experienced pilot than those flying an SR20 or 22.
jrh
Well-Known Member
Right. But that's my point. It's not a fair comparison because the two aircraft are used so differently.
It's like comparing motorcycle fatalities to bicycle fatalities. I don't really even know which is safer per mile ridden, motorcycle or bicycle, but even if I did, it would be a stupid comparison to make. Nobody rides their bicycles at 70 mph on the freeway and nobody rides their motorcycles at 12 mph on private trails designed only for motorcycles.
Just because a machine has two wheels and is used for transportation doesn't mean it can be compared to all other two-wheeled means of transportation.
So it is with aircraft. If I came up with a statistic that somehow showed how Cessna 140s are statistically safer than SR-22s, would you say the C-140 is a "better" aircraft?
Aircraft really ought to be judged on their own merits entirely, or at least only with other aircraft of very similar performance characteristics.
A150K
Well-Known Member
The problem is, alot of guys who own airplanes with all the automation don't know how to use the automation as a tool, they depend on it. Not just GPS either (GPS, if used the right way is extremely helpful in building situational awareness), there are guys who haven't handflown above 500 AGL for years, don't look for traffic because they have traffic information on the aircraft, and so on. Diminishing stick and rudder skills are becoming almost as much of a problem in GA as they've become with jet pilots (not all, but some). And anyone who factors CAPS into their go/no go decision is an idiot...Period.
Mike H
Well-Known Member
Well, if Cirri are more cross-country airplanes, and "venerable" -172's and DA-40's are used much more for traning, wouldn't that, in fact, make the Cirrus safety record comparatively much worse, because accidents are far more likely to occur on training flights than any other kind.
jrh
Well-Known Member
Except that they're not.
Training is an extremely safe segment. It's done with a relatively experienced pilot on board, in a familiar area, with little reason to "push" a dangerous scenario. Cross country flying is far riskier, statistically speaking.
Aircraft used extensively for training, like the 172, have better statistics because of it.
msmspilot
Well-Known Member
Yes. Yes I do. They scare me to death. But just as an example, in (I think) Plane and Pilot about a year or so ago, they did an article where a woman actually said one of the great things about her Corvallis was that she could set the autopilot and read to her kids because she didn't have to worry about flying the airplane.
As far as the not doing a flight plan, preflight, or actually flying the plane, you don't have to go look for people getting glass airplanes to find that. I don't know your personal background or qualifications, but I'm going to have to assume that you're not an instructor or that if you are, you do very few flight reviews/IPCs.
My background is in my profile.
Can I suggest it to you? I can deduce from reading your profile that you're a mid-20's, early 30's young man who is in his first 2 or 3 jobs out of a CFI gig in an FBO somewhere. What's your point?I am a former USN / FAA Air Traffic Controller. I've controlled NAS Meridian (KNMM), in Mississippi, home of the braindead Advanced Jet Training Pilot, and 5 hurricanes, NAS North Island (KNZY), and Diego Garcia (FJDG). I am a JTAC and have served in multiple overseas campaigns in that role. I got out in 08. I worked CHD for a short time after getting out. I started flight school in July, and am using the GI Bill to finish everything through my MEII. When I finish that, I'm going to get my A&P. Summer or Fall 2012. I run two small businesses; breeding and selling Arabian Horses. I am involved in real estate investment, and private money lending, as well.
I am a member on the Cirrus owners forum. I don't see the mentality there that is expressed here. At least not spoken publicly.
What qualifications are you looking for exactly? I am not an instructor, but why would that limit my ability to go shake a hand, introduce myself, and get a feeling about a pilot after a conversation? I have flown with many people, controlled many more, and have never seen the reckless "devil may care" attitude that has been exemplified in this thread. Maybe you'll have to introduce me to these fine folks.
BTW.... Merry Christmas.
I've seen this, as well. I agree that there are ignorant pilots. I agree that there are pilots who don''t work at being a better pilot. I agree that there are pilots who are unable to "think out of the box", and adapt to changes conditions in their environment which may require making changes to SOP. I also agree that a go/no go decision based on a chute is idiotic, but I guess that's because they've never seen the violence of an ejection sequence.
msmspilot
Well-Known Member
My background is in my profile.
What qualifications are you looking for exactly? I am not an instructor, but why would that limit my ability to go shake a hand, introduce myself, and get a feeling about a pilot after a conversation? I have flown with many people, controlled many more, and have never seen the reckless "devil may care" attitude that has been exemplified in this thread. Maybe you'll have to introduce me to these fine folks.
BTW.... Merry Christmas.
To your first point, fair enough.
Secondly, you don't have to be an instructor to meet these "fine folks," but I do seem to see them more in my professional capacity as an instructor. I would venture that people who don't give a flip about being good, safe pilots probably won't be in the Cirrus Owners forums. They also won't be the ones you meet at the FAA or AOPA safety meetings. (the people I know that fit that mold never showed up to said meetings). You might find them BSing around the hangars, but my experience has been that most of them don't hang out at the airport. When they get to the airport, they hop in the plane, hit "direct to", and go fly.
I honestly hope I've had a bad sampling. For the record, of the three people who just immediately come to mind, only one owns a Cirrus. I also know a Cirrus owner who I would put my wife and parents in the plane with them any time without a second thought. So I'm NOT bashing Cirrus pilots or their airplanes. I've seen the same thing with Bonanzas, Senecas, and even 172s.
I'm not trying to argue, just say that there are people out there who aren't contentious.
Merry Christmas.
To your first point, fair enough.
Secondly, you don't have to be an instructor to meet these "fine folks," but I do seem to see them more in my professional capacity as an instructor. I would venture that people who don't give a flip about being good, safe pilots probably won't be in the Cirrus Owners forums. They also won't be the ones you meet at the FAA or AOPA safety meetings. (the people I know that fit that mold never showed up to said meetings). You might find them BSing around the hangars, but my experience has been that most of them don't hang out at the airport. When they get to the airport, they hop in the plane, hit "direct to", and go fly.
I honestly hope I've had a bad sampling. For the record, of the three people who just immediately come to mind, only one owns a Cirrus. I also know a Cirrus owner who I would put my wife and parents in the plane with them any time without a second thought. So I'm NOT bashing Cirrus pilots or their airplanes. I've seen the same thing with Bonanzas, Senecas, and even 172s.
I'm not trying to argue, just say that there are people out there who aren't contentious.
Merry Christmas.
Fair enough.... To which I will say....
THERE ARE OLD PILOTS, AND THERE ARE BOLD PILOTS.....
WacoFan
Bigly
At some point I read where the Columbia/Corvalis airplane had a pretty intensive training regime that came with the purchase of the airplane (this is prior to Cessna buying the company). This training included unusual attitude recovery in a curriculum that was designed by Sean Tucker.
My opinion is that an intense training regimen that included some intense unusual attitude recovery would most likely be more important, and effective, than the BRS chute in most cases.
Another thing that would probably be helpful is for everyone to learn to fly - at least through solo and the first solo x-country - in a Cub, Champ, Luscombe, etc. They would actually have to learn to fly an airplane then, would learn all about what a rudder is, and would have to learn how to use pilotage and dead reckoning on at least one x-country. Actually putting someone in the left seat of an airplane that actually knows how to fly and has a feel for the airplane may increase safety a little.
My opinion is that an intense training regimen that included some intense unusual attitude recovery would most likely be more important, and effective, than the BRS chute in most cases.
Another thing that would probably be helpful is for everyone to learn to fly - at least through solo and the first solo x-country - in a Cub, Champ, Luscombe, etc. They would actually have to learn to fly an airplane then, would learn all about what a rudder is, and would have to learn how to use pilotage and dead reckoning on at least one x-country. Actually putting someone in the left seat of an airplane that actually knows how to fly and has a feel for the airplane may increase safety a little.
nosehair
Well-Known Member
I see your point, and raise you one.
The statistics compare overall GA accidents, and compare 'motorcycles to bicycles' in the way that some bicycle drivers may get on a motorcycle with no training/experience, and get into accidents because they are still mentally driving a bicycle at 70 on the freeway.
IF (big if) the bicycle (Cirrus) driver would get sufficient specialized training to drive the vehicle at it's capacity, including special training on the use of the parachute, with perhaps sim training on actual deployment, with required endorsements, then the comparison would be more about the aircraft than the pilot.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Jeesh, the FAA has been doing specialized Cirrus training (just like they did for Mooney/Bonanza) for years, or has that all stopped?
KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
Also, it helps when one has fuel tanks situated between two wing spars and one just has a wet wing. Looking at the data, it ain't hard to figure out which is which.
Pilotforhire587
Lycra Man
Nope still doing it. The flightschool I worked at had Cirrus Transition courses... You still get some crazies that come through though
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Airplanes attract the crazies.
Pilotforhire587
Lycra Man
This is true!