Average hours to checkride "pass"

w5cdt

w5cdt

New Member
I took a ride with my CFI tonight. After 2+ hours of PTS stuff I am told that I'm not ready for the checkride. I've worked hard, showed up on time, been thoughtful and careful, and at 90+ hours I'm told I'm not ready.
Am I really this untalented? What gives? :banghead:

Signed,

Not amused
 
No , it doesn't mean that You are not talented. I hope that you got much more from your flight instructor than just "You are not ready". Assuming that he/she was more specific on wich maneuvers were not within PTS standards, watch more closely how how those maneuvers are demonstrated. Pay attention to things as power settings, trim settings, ball position, pitch attitudes and how fast and how slowly your flight instructor does a maneuver. Those little things can make a world of difference. If all that doesn' t work You can ask to go up while your instructor is flying with another student so you can see from the back seat: You'll learn a lot by somebody else's mistakes.
Doubting yourself wil not help. finding out what you are doing wrong will.
 
Everyone faces hurdles in their training. Keep with it, and as suggested above give another CFI a try if you've been with the same one for 90 hours (or the majority of it).
 
w5 - here's the skinny: don't take it personally (hard I know), but you are either able to demonstrate all the maneuvers in the PTS to standards consistantly, or you are not.

The PTS isn't an 80% thing. It's a 100% thing.

As an instructor I will not rubber stamp. There is no rubber stamp. So What I would do from here is ask your instructor where you are deficient - ask for specifics otherwise it may not be helpful.

Practice those areas and use the critique to become a better pilot. The PTS is the MINIMUM acceptable standards for airmanship. It means that in reality, you should be twice as good as the PTS dictates.

I feel for you. I have had to prolong training with students I would have liked to finish a while ago. I know how frusterating it can be. Keep your chin up and don't worry how many hours it takes you, training and education never hurt pilots.
 
After cooling down I started analyzing my "progress problem".

At this point it boils down to this:

There is no continuity between lessons at this point.
It's just hop in the plane and do some ad hoc stuff.
Ad hoc approaches won't work for checkride prep.
My CFI doesn't take notes, doesn't remember me from
other students, nor does my CFI have a keen idea of
my PTS weaknesses. The very *least* that should have
happened was that my CFI should have presented me with
a written list of deficiences after the ride. That list should
then become the mini-syllabus of prep work for the PTS.
Students need coaches even if they are self-learners.
Some things I can probably polish up in solo flight but it's
*always* better to have an independent observer taking
notes. I'm busy in the left seat...the person in the right seat
should observe and take notes for later study by me.

I've found another CFI...it's going to cost me some "get familiar"
hours with the new CFI (i.e. money). This is unfortunate but
it's a more predictable path to PTS perfection. My problems
are more about fine-tuning and laser focus. I'm not terrible at
any of the tasks..just below par in some of them. This should
not be a big deal but I've lost faith that my CFI knows how to
fix my problems efficiently...sure maybe after 20 more hours of ad hoc
flying lessons but I'm really peeved about the schooling technique
at this point. It's becoming inefficient and expensive.

-Signed
Determined.
 
w5cdt said:
After cooling down I started analyzing my "progress problem".

At this point it boils down to this:
Click to expand...

Very sorry to hear you've had trouble, but it sounds like you did the right thing by switching instructors. This is the exact reason why I say a good quality instructor is well worth finding, even if they cost a bit more per hour.

Just make sure to politely inform the flight school manager of what happened and why you switched. A lot of times these kinds of problems don't get noticed by management unless somebody speaks up. If management doesn't know about a problem, they can't fix it for other students.
 
You make some valid points, but I disagree with a few of them.

I rarely take notes in the airplane. I do, however, debrief the flight from start to finish and can (normally) recall the major items and assign areas for study and improvement during the next flight. I make brief notes of these as a starting point for next time. It's up to the student to take notes on what his study assignment is.

It sounds like your CFI wasn't doing any of that, and you aren't concerned with his lack of notes, but his lack of recall.

You say you have 90+ flight hours, but how much study time do you have on the PTS? Pick a maneuver: power off stall (for example) Can you perfectly describe every action to complete the maneuver? If you can't then there's no way you can consistently achieve the PTS.

Here's how I would describe power off stall for a C-172:

Setup: Cruise airspeed (2400 RPM), level, constant heading. Area clear (clearing turns), no traffic, no obstacles (over a VOR, airport, etc) and above 1500' for entire maneuver (that means starting 2000' or higher). Landing checklist. Carb heat on, power to 2000 RPM, hold the nose up as speed decays, maintain heading. Speed in white arc: flaps to full. Correct for balloon when flaps deploy, maintain alt & hdg. At 75 MPH, push nose over, throttle to idle. Maintain hdg. Trim for hands off.

Performance: Pick target alt. 50' above it raise nose to the horizon (~normal climb attitude) and pause for 1 heartbeat. As soon as I see the first indication of the nose coming down, begin a steady increase of back pressure to hold the nose above the horizon. Use the rudder to keep the wings level. Announce: stall warning horn, wing buffet, break.

Recovery: Yoke forward just enough to break the stall (no aileron), level wings with rudder. Full power & carb heat off, nose to proper climb attitude, flaps to 20 degrees, correct back to assigned heading. Positive rate of climb, then flaps to 10 degrees. Vy then flaps up. Climb back to starting alt, accel to cruise. Cruise checks.

You should be able to do that for every maneuver in the PTS. If you can't then you need more study time before you fly again.

Hope this helps.
 
w5cdt said:
After cooling down I started analyzing my "progress problem".

At this point it boils down to this:

There is no continuity between lessons at this point.
It's just hop in the plane and do some ad hoc stuff.
Ad hoc approaches won't work for checkride prep.
My CFI doesn't take notes, doesn't remember me from
other students, nor does my CFI have a keen idea of
my PTS weaknesses. The very *least* that should have
happened was that my CFI should have presented me with
a written list of deficiences after the ride. That list should
then become the mini-syllabus of prep work for the PTS.
Students need coaches even if they are self-learners.
Some things I can probably polish up in solo flight but it's
*always* better to have an independent observer taking
notes. I'm busy in the left seat...the person in the right seat
should observe and take notes for later study by me.

I've found another CFI...it's going to cost me some "get familiar"
hours with the new CFI (i.e. money). This is unfortunate but
it's a more predictable path to PTS perfection. My problems
are more about fine-tuning and laser focus. I'm not terrible at
any of the tasks..just below par in some of them. This should
not be a big deal but I've lost faith that my CFI knows how to
fix my problems efficiently...sure maybe after 20 more hours of ad hoc
flying lessons but I'm really peeved about the schooling technique
at this point. It's becoming inefficient and expensive.

-Signed
Determined.
Click to expand...

I hate to tell you this, but some people can take much longer to learn to fly an airplane than others. While you are going to go with a different CFI, I have a couple of questions for you:

How often do you fly per week? Per Month? Has it been consistent, or hit or miss due to weather issues, maintenance, etc...?

Have you read the PTS to know the EXACT standards you must meet for the checkride, for every maneuver? There is an examiner's checklist in the back that lists every maneuver, and then behind that, it describes every maneuver and the limits.

Do you ever sit in any empty airplane and pretend you are flying the maneuvers(AKA Chair-flying)?
 
I think my deficiencies are easily conquerable...slight altitude drift (200 feet),
altitude hold in the 45 degree turns. Mind you my CFI has not been emphasizing
much of anything lately and so I flew by myself. I just need a tune up on about
half of the PTS tasks. Easily doable but must the scheduled and organized in order
to finish. That's my rub with the current CFI.
 
Mojo said:
How often do you fly per week? Per Month? Has it been consistent, or hit or miss due to weather issues, maintenance, etc...?

Have you read the PTS to know the EXACT standards you must meet for the checkride, for every maneuver? There is an examiner's checklist in the back that lists every maneuver, and then behind that, it describes every maneuver and the limits.

From Dec 4 to Feb 19 my instructor flew with me 4 times. During that same period...trying to stay "current" I flew by myself 6 times. That's a total of 4 CFI lessons from Dec 4th to Feb 19th. I have read and highlighted the PTS book. The PTS book has been my focus of study along with the Oral Exam Guide. To get ready for the PTS I probably need 2 to 3 CFI lessons per week with a careful accounting of my strengths and weaknesses. I can eventually do this by myself but I need to practice the "distractions" factor that a CFI (and subsequent DE) will provide.
With the right (and committed) CFI this can easily be done.
 
Why haven't you flown more with the instructor? Do you schedule your flights or does he? Something doesn't seem right, either way. It seems you are focused and determined, so good luck on your checkride!
 
I don't take notes with my students until the checkride prep. Then we go out and do a whole checkride and I take notes of the deficient areas. Next flight we go out and do the same thing but only concentrate on the weak areas. I just keep doing this until nothing is on my list.

(I don't see why you couldn't do this yourself and maybe suggest this to your instructor)

As long as the student stays within standards and can do all of the proper things without promting they are ready. This means doing clearning turns before stalls and stuff like that.

I want my students to be good pilots, not just good enough for a checkride. I pay no attention to hours flown until solo or the checkride. Although for me, they take a little longer for both.

I tell my students that this is just a small part in their flying life. Why not take a little extra time to build a solid foundation now.
 
I am not a note taker either and I tend to address things as they happen rather than review after the lesson. That is just my style.

You mentioned "slight altitude drift of 200 feet." 200 feet is more than slight and you should hold yourself to a much higher level. If you view these deficiencies as slight they tend to become larger and larger. Strive for 0 feet of altitude variation and a small error is a matter of 10-20 feet. If you think that 100 feet is ok, then a small error becomes 150 or more.

You may view this as unrealistic but I assure you it works. You have to get into the frame of mind that even the small errors are unacceptable, and always push yourself to be better.

As for how you described how you have been handled in the past, you have probably made the correct decision by switching instructors. Sometimes a fresh perspective or approach is all you need to get over the hump.
 
You instructor should be held accountable for his/her actions.
A "you're not ready" is never an adequate answer to any lesson. Any decent instructor knows and understands this.
You made the right move in requesting a different instructor. A few, good solid lessons with somebody who knows what they're doing and cares about your progress and you will learn more than in the 40 or so lessons you had with your lazy CFI. Good luck!
 
desertdog71 said:
You mentioned "slight altitude drift of 200 feet." 200 feet is more than slight and you should hold yourself to a much higher level. If you view these deficiencies as slight they tend to become larger and larger. Strive for 0 feet of altitude variation and a small error is a matter of 10-20 feet. If you think that 100 feet is ok, then a small error becomes 150 or more.

You may view this as unrealistic but I assure you it works. You have to get into the frame of mind that even the small errors are unacceptable, and always push yourself to be better.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:

I was going to mention the same thing. I have a phrase my students are tired of hearing me say: In flying you are either "on" or you are "correcting"...and you're never "on"! If you have the mindset that "Close enough is good enough" you will have a hard time being the master of the airplane. You'll just be another passenger along for the ride who can influence where the airplane goes, but not completely control it. This is not something your instructor can "fix" -- it's a mindset you must have to be a true pilot.

(Don't take this as an attack, it's just an observation based on what you wrote. You can take my opinion for what it's worth.) A 200 ft deviation in altitude is not a "slight altitude drift." It's a gross deviation twice the allowable limit and it's a failing performance. If this is the only thing you did wrong on your last flight, I would also tell you that you're not ready for your checkride. There's no sense in setting you up for failure if you haven't mastered a maneuver. (Chances are that this in an indicator of a larger problem that is evident in other maneuvers.) Your problem with steep turns could be caused by a couple of things. I think the biggest cause is what I mentioned above: your willingness to accept deviations. If a small deviation doesn't get your attention it turns into a big deviation, and before you know it you've exceeded the PTS. The other reason could be that you don't truly understand the aerodynamics behind the steep turn and how to perform the maneuver correctly. The good news is that fixing your willingness to accept deviations will force you to understand the aerodynamics better, if that was the problem. It could be a little of both, but I think the language you used in your post points to your deviation tolerence as the culprit.

Don't worry, I had 750 hrs and was training for my CPL before I completely understood short field landings. It took me nearly crashing my own airplane to make me realize that I didn't understand them. That's when I adopted my motto: In flying you are either "on" or you are "correcting"...and you're never "on"!
 
Nihon_Ni said:
The other reason could be that you don't truly understand the aerodynamics behind the steep turn and how to perform the maneuver correctly. The good news is that fixing your willingness to accept deviations will force you to understand the aerodynamics better, if that was the problem.
Click to expand...

I think this is a great point overlooked by many students and instructors alike.

I've seen way too many instructors either teaching or debriefing a flight and they refer to nothing deeper than the variations in altitude or airspeed. They just bark, "You're 100 feet high, get back on altitude," and think that classifies as teaching.

I feel like telling the CFI, "No kidding, Sherlock, your student knows he's off altitude. A monkey could see he's off altitude. The problem is that your student doesn't know how he got there, or how to fix it."

*That's* what teaching is about.
 
I don't take notes either, unless I am flying with somebody that "needs" notes eg somebody who will argue your every word in the debrief.

From Dec 4 to Feb 19 my instructor flew with me 4 times. During that same period...trying to stay "current" I flew by myself 6 times. That's a total of 4 CFI lessons from Dec 4th to Feb 19th. I have read and highlighted the PTS book. The PTS book has been my focus of study along with the Oral Exam Guide. To get ready for the PTS I probably need 2 to 3 CFI lessons per week with a careful accounting of my strengths and weaknesses. I can eventually do this by myself but I need to practice the "distractions" factor that a CFI (and subsequent DE) will provide.
With the right (and committed) CFI this can easily be done.

So in 3.5 months you flew 10 times.
That would barely be enough to maintain a standard, let alone improve on it.
As a student you should not fly on your own to stay "current", you need to fly with an instructor. Just my opinion.

Sit down with your instructor and schedule some 6-8 lessons with only a couple of days in between and get him/her to work out a plan for you.

You seem to have very high expactations form your CFI, he should do this, should do that etc etc etc.
They are not there to atke the checkride for you.
Even an average instructor cannot ruin a motivated student.
 
Thanks for all of the suggestions. I have a plan in place which
includes a back-up CFI in case the lesson schedule loses steam again.

:-)
 
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