I have been researching ATP and a couple of FBOs near me. The FBOs are Academy of Aviation LLC http://www.academyofaviation.com/ , and Heritage Flight Academy http://www.heritageflightacademy.com/ Are these schools any good in your opinion, based on what you see on their websites? I want to fly for an airline someday and I don't care if that means putting up with the regionals. (All part of the journey, right?) Which schools would offer me the best chance of employment as a CFI or FO for a regional?
ATP vs FBO
- Thread starter ShaggyAce
- Start date
Douglas
Old School KSUX
I honestly think that the person that gets the ratings for less will win. (Pay for quality instruction, rent cheaply.)
Quality of flight schools is equally stagnant across the line. But the the quality of instructor inside each organization varies greatly.
None "place" will give you a leg up, but some instructors are better than others.
It's a crap shoot, but when you find good instructor, hold on to him.
Quality of flight schools is equally stagnant across the line. But the the quality of instructor inside each organization varies greatly.
None "place" will give you a leg up, but some instructors are better than others.
It's a crap shoot, but when you find good instructor, hold on to him.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
You can learn to fly anywhere there's a CFI and an airplane. So much of it depends on you. The FBO route will likely take longer, but you'll spend a A LOT less. As far as I can tell, right now the "bridge programs" and "preferential interviews" of the big schools (both collegiate and career) mean approximately nothing, but that could change by the time you're done with the basic ratings. Now, from my personal experience, which is no way comprehensive, FBOs tend to put out pilots who have a broader understanding of flying "in the system" and "in the real world" than the academies. But the truth is, I've met plenty of fine pilots who came from both places. If you're in an all-fired hurry to get to work, and you see "little airplanes" as a means to the end of flying a jet from one 10,000 foot runway to another, AND you for whatever reason (it could be a legitimate reason...maybe you have GI benefits or uber-rich parents footing the bill) don't have to worry about money, the puppy mills can absolutely make a functional, capable pilot of you (you have to do some work, too). And they can do it faster, typically, than an FBO. With that said, I think it's probably obvious which path I'd choose (and did choose). Again, though, it's not a slagging match, and neither is the Dephil. It all depends on your situation and what you want.
Krieger
Well-Known Member
Well said Boris. I agree.
I am still to this day, astonished by the lack of knowledge about "the system" or "industry" that ATP's students and instructors displayed. It's not their fault. Most of the ATP'ers I met just weren't exposed to any other flying besides ATP.
I enjoyed my time at ATP. Just pointing out that an FBO would most likely expose you to more experienced instructors, charter pilots, freight dogs, and other airport rats that make up the structure of GA pilots.
But as Boris said, who cares if all you want is to fly the regionals ASAP!
I am still to this day, astonished by the lack of knowledge about "the system" or "industry" that ATP's students and instructors displayed. It's not their fault. Most of the ATP'ers I met just weren't exposed to any other flying besides ATP.
I enjoyed my time at ATP. Just pointing out that an FBO would most likely expose you to more experienced instructors, charter pilots, freight dogs, and other airport rats that make up the structure of GA pilots.
But as Boris said, who cares if all you want is to fly the regionals ASAP!
Turbine
Well-Known Member
If you go to an FBO, just make sure there maintenance department is up to par. Ive been to a couple FBO's that don't exactly have the best maintenance.
ATP will get you done quick, but so will any other place if you've got the cash. Just be sure to research were ever you go, and feel the place the out.
ATP will get you done quick, but so will any other place if you've got the cash. Just be sure to research were ever you go, and feel the place the out.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Well, both sites are kind of execrable, but between the two, Heritage seems better from an extremely cursory glance. The other one is offering a "guaranteed pilot position", which is a load of manure no matter who's selling it. Have you run the numbers on going out to Podunk, Flyover Country rather than learning in the most expensive place in the US? Just asking.
Krieger
Well-Known Member
Those are both 141 schools. FBO's are "Fixed Base Operators". These businesses offer services like fuel sales, flight training, maintenance, charter flights and other pilot amenities.
You have to feel out both places. Visit them, ask questions, but search part 61 flight schools as well. Farmingdale looks cool because they have a grass strip. I always wanted to land in the grass!
Are you familiar with the differences of training under part 141 v 61?
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Landing in the grass is great fun. I was doing it fifteen years ago while working on my private, and I recommend it highly. That said, I spend more time at Farmingdale than I'd like to (they don't let us land the beatchjet in the grass, sadly) and it's an absolute zoo at peak hours and particularly on weekends. It'd be a LOT for a student to take in all at once, and you'd likely spend a lot of time watching the hobbs tick over whilst sitting number 5 for takeoff. Just a datapoint.
Douglas
Old School KSUX
I see what you saying but he should also know that an FBO can provide 141 flight training as well.
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(Personally whenever I see a flight school labeled "Academy", I get a little lip snarl. But that's just me though!)
fullrudder
Well-Known Member
Did you get a chance to crunch the numbers? A $55,000 loan @ 8% for 15 years will cost you $525 per month and a total of $39,609 in interest which is like a new bmw. So when it's all said and done, you would have paid a grand total of $94,609. ATP offers financing unlike most FBOs and it's POSSIBLE to get a job as a CFI after completing their program which would allow to gain multi time. However, it's a BIG commitment so you can't be half-assed about it. Like with all accelerated programs, be prepared to get pushed through whether you are comfortable or not. At an FBO, they will customize the training to your needs if needed. You might wan't to test the waters at a FBO first before you decide. And no, I did not go to ATP. http://www.bankrate.com/calculators.aspx.
Autothrust Blue
”…trusting ze process…”
So about the training...
Do you have a college degree? (Not having one will not necessarily disqualify you from employment, but not having one WILL limit your options.)
I've done everything with the exception of my commercial MEL at one of the local FBOs. All Part 61. (Commercial single, and multiengine land; instrument airplane. CFI in work.) I have around 500TT now and I've spent just under what the ATP Career Program costs (as of 2011) getting that...so you can crunch that internally if you like.
The training I got in Long Beach for CMEL was very, very good. Excellent, in fact, and free use of the FTD is also very handy. It really depends on the student: you need to walk in already knowing a lot to really be successful in ATP's fast paced environment. You will live, eat, and breathe aviation as long as you are in one of their programs and it's a very, very high quality experience. Come prepared and well-rested.
By contrast, progress at the local FBO can seem glacially slow. But there's a lot more flexibility, variety and discretion in the flying you can do at an FBO. I got to log time in a Diamond Katana and Star (lovely), Cessna 152, 172, 182, 210, 414 and 421 (oh boy!), a Beech Duchess (blech) and a Piper Seminole and Seneca (what a sweetheart) over the course of all this. I've been places on fly-ins I never thought I'd go to and made a lot of friends and had a great time doing it. I paid as I went and worked and went to school full-time.
Want to go to Mammoth? FBO flying, no problem. Got a business evolution somewhere up the coast that you need to get to in a hurry? Go for it: grab the airplane and go. Or Deer Park to have lunch/dinner with family friends? Sure. ATP doesn't necessarily have that flexibility. But you WILL get very very structured, regimented and professional training out of ATP, and a better hack at the crew concept. And you'll get used to drinking knowledge from a firehose: a handy skill.
But, you should do what works for you. If you can afford (and handle) a fast track program, go for it. If you want to take your time and possibly get more variety, go the FBO route. Either way is fun.
A final note: Avoid debt to the maximum extent possible. If you think that first year salary looks low unencumbered, just try to service a large amount of loan debt on it. If you can get in without digging yourself in too much, you'll be ahead of the game.
And lastly (I mean it this time): good luck, and enjoy.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
This is a good post. You have to understand that this type of loan could potentially be devastating on a CFI/Regional pilot salary your first 3-5 years. With that said, the ATP operation at my local airport is really nice. Their airplanes are nice and they are a well structured program. Ultimately, it comes down to your finances and what your goals are.
Autothrust Blue
”…trusting ze process…”
Good.
If you do the fast-track career program, I'd say so. 90 days from zero to hero is hella intense - cross off the whole summer, or something like that. I wouldn't want to try it while school was in session. As I recall the career applicants (fast track) are expected to train something like the majority of the time. (more) The self-paced program requires not less than 10 training days per month.
I did all of my training out of FRG, and there are a lot of flight schools over there. As far as accademy of aviation goes its not a terrible flight school but its very limiting to what it allows you to do. If you go to a regular FBO once you get your private and while you building time you can just grab your friends and go fly. Academy will pair you up with another pilot so both of you can log the time. Also they give you allot of simulator time and thats how they save alot of money on you, they will max out the sim time that regulations allow. So you have to look at it as instead of pying for actual flight hours you will be paying for sim time. However if you buy the package deal they will offer you CFI position once you are done with your training. The maintenance as far as I know on their airplanes is good and they are all faily new I dont think they have any planes that are older than 10 years. And I know plenty of people from my college who are flying with accademy and never heard of anybody having any maintenance issues. Most of their planes are G1000 C-172, and its a good plane to fly but in my opinion that galss cockpit is not good to learn on. If you want more info on flight schools in Farmingdale PM me Ill be more than happy to tell you what I know.
Autothrust Blue
”…trusting ze process…”
Even then, given the amount of material you're expected to cram down, I would say plan on doing some sort of training, be it flight, ground, or simulator, self- or instructor-directed, everyday.