ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent grads

Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

Having been there done that, got the tacky refrigerator magnet; I would not do it again. Mainly because of cost. I'm not really opposed to the RJ course so long as it is not used as a means to avoid real experience building. If you feel you would benefit from the additional training, then have at it.

That being said, ATP offers a great training environment. My cush office gig wouldn't allow for flight training on the side. So I needed to take a few months off and knock out the training. If you're in a similar position, ATP is hard to match. It also offers a great network environment as all of the people there have professional aspirations.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

DE727UPS said:
Seniority is nothing when you "got there fast" by skipping the CFI in favor of an RJ course, got hired at low time at a regional, and end up on the street six months later. I guess my point is that the regionals aren't the rosy picture for the low time SJSer they used to be. Today, selling the ACPP program on "get there fast" seems to ring hollow. Get where fast?

Whatever school you go to, it would be wise to get the CFI and build an experience base you can sell somewhere down the road, if need be.
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Or don't make it through sim because you don't have enough experience. There were two guys who didn't make it through sim in my class when I went through. One had 350 hours and one had 450 hours.

Some people may think that since we're having a hiring slowdown that their best bet is to get hired as quickly as they can but having a 121 failure on your PRIA ain't going to look good when the hiring slows down.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

ATP does not encourage ANYWHERE (at least where I have read and where I instruct) to skip being a CFI, take the RJ course and go to 121. ATP does not have the ability to force people into being a CFI, but it is strongly encouraged. Clearly the market isnt going to support low time Regional FO's anymore, so that "problem" is going to solve itself, and everybody will be better off. It just seems to be different criticism of ATP at every turn by self appointed "yoda's" that seem to resent the nature of the industry but take it out on the suppliers of the needs of that industry. Just looking for the logic, thats all.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

"Just looking for the logic, thats all."

How logical is it to market low time hiring agreements and "get there now with ATP", to newbies who don't know any better, in a regional industry that is in a VERY challenging situation?

You have nine posts. I've been around here long enough to have pointed out big academy marketing BS to the misinformed long before Comair academy became DCA or ATA went down the tubes.

I know marketing BS when I see it. I even got two ratings (sort of) from ATP back in the 80's.

Like I've always said. The day big academy puts a link to JC on their website to educate the newbs as to the state of the industry is the day I shut up.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

DE727UPS said:
"Just looking for the logic, thats all."

How logical is it to market low time hiring agreements and "get there now with ATP", to newbies who don't know any better, in a regional industry that is in a VERY challenging situation?

You have nine posts. I've been around here long enough to have pointed out big academy marketing BS to the misinformed long before Comair academy became DCA or ATA went down the tubes.

I know marketing BS when I see it. I even got two ratings (sort of) from ATP back in the 80's.

Like I've always said. The day big academy puts a link to JC on their website to educate the newbs as to the state of the industry is the day I shut up.
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One of the brightest, most honest, and absolutely true things I've seen posted on here so far. And for someone with not so many posts myself, I appreciate this.

So all the marketing BS aside, is ATP any good?
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

Is it best for you? For me it was, It will have paid for itself in about 1.5 to 2 years. The less time your a student, and the more time your making money with your skills, the better. I chose not to go the regional route, if I had, my cost of living would go up 2 to 3 times, and my paycheck cut in half, and well, my investment in going to ATP would be a much bigger deal to pay off...
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

Well, I guess that is what it all comes down to- who has the most posts. :sarcasm: (and it is 10 posts now!:rawk:)

Truth is, for the last few years it has been a hiring boom, and many people did "get there fast" with ATP while others took a much longer route. The regionals isnt for me- i am going 135 freight. But, how many over the past few months made it to their first airline job by going through ATP while others who started at the same time are just now getting there CFI? You dont like ATP- thats fine. Parts of it I hate too and will be glad to be gone, but BILLH, who is no koolaid drinker of ATP, said it best. "The less time you are a student, the more time you are being paid for your skills." Gee, that just sounds smart to me- even with all 9, oops sorry, 10 of my posts. Now, with the regional hiring slow down, they will be getting to the CFI job first, or 135 or whatever. More power to them.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

Also, something to think about -- I think ATP has recently hit "Peak FO" (kind of like Peak Oil but different) which explains why on their front page they no longer show the exact number of pilots from ATP hired by an airline in the past 12 months, merely "400+".

I don't think now is the time to bet a significent amount of cash and get there "quick."
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

eclipse said:
BILLH, who is no koolaid drinker of ATP, said it best. "The less time you are a student, the more time you are being paid for your skills." Gee, that just sounds smart to me- even with all 9, oops sorry, 10 of my posts. Now, with the regional hiring slow down, they will be getting to the CFI job first, or 135 or whatever. More power to them.
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Hmmm... I dont know exactly what you mean by being less time as a student means more you are getting paid for your skills. What about those who spend 20k-40k less and did it in a little longer and have less debt (nearly half of what an ATP pays in a monthly payment) and therefore has the nicer house, nicer car, nice debt/income ratio and all that stuff...... Funny how that all works too. Also skills are not developed in 90 days. Yes you can fly but I'm not sure how I would go about saying getting paid for your skills. I dont know I find this attitude more so as to what is wrong with the industry. Let me rush and pay double to get piad 20k. While that person who spent maybe 180 days spent only half the amount and thus is only 90 days behind you. And yes he's again only having half of the debt.....Just other things too look at!
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

How big of a rip-off is it that the 10-month self paced program is still $60,000? I mean in that scenario you don't even get there quick!
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

"Well, I guess that is what it all comes down to- who has the most posts"

Whatever works for you....

You diss me as a high time user but have nothing better?

"The less time you are a student, the more time you are being paid for your skills." Gee, that just sounds smart to me"

Well, I disagree. That totally discounts the value of a set experience level for doing a specific job. Personally, I don't think a RJ F/O should be at less than IFR 135 mins. I mean, if you have the background to fly a 90 pax jet, you should at least have the background to fly single pilot IFR 135. Is that too much to ask?

The BillH hypothesis would put a 60 hour pilot in the right seat of a jet if the airlines would allow it. I just don't think that's a great idea.

Though I have no dawg in the fight, as it will never be my problem, I'd say 1200 to 1500 total should be a min to fly 121.

When I was young, 1500/500 was what the commuters (regionals) wanted to fly a metro (RJ). I'd love to see the industry go back to this as a min standard.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

DE727: Dont take it as a "diss." It wasnt. I was just pointing out what I perceive to be a flawed attitude that if you have been on the forums longer you are more qualified to speak.

The whole 60hour-rightseat-fo comment is a strawman. That was not what was said or intended. What was said, and I firmly believe, that the sooner one can begin work as a CFI/CFII/MEI the better for their experience level, knowledge and job opportunities. Who could possibly disagree with that? After all they could reach the 1500/500 sooner.

Meyers has a point about taking longer with less debt- now more than ever.

DE727, I would, respectfully, challenge you on the notion that you do not have a dog in the fight. The amount of emotion in your argument seems to say otherwise. Dont know you personally, that is just what it sounds like.

ATP is accelerated. It is not for everyone, not for the lazy or those who want to be spoonfed. But if you can study on your own and want to fly more multi time faster for whatever your career goals are, it is a good choice (if you can afford it.)

Eclipse
(post 11)
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

Here's one for you guys...

Do you think there's any chance that when the economy rebounds (and it will) that ATP lowers their price? That would be interesting. I almost think they won't. And I remember hearing it was $25k before. I'd got for $25k in a heartbeat! I would have been done by now!

Chris
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

^Lower's their price?

Wouldn't they lower it now so more could afford it?

I don't see their program being $60K for very long, I bet by year's end it is up closer to $70k.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

Yeah I doubt that would ever happen. So how do we (future flight training customers) stand a chance?
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

DE727UPS said:
"Well, I guess that is what it all comes down to- who has the most posts"

Whatever works for you....

You diss me as a high time user but have nothing better?

"The less time you are a student, the more time you are being paid for your skills." Gee, that just sounds smart to me"

Well, I disagree. That totally discounts the value of a set experience level for doing a specific job. Personally, I don't think a RJ F/O should be at less than IFR 135 mins. I mean, if you have the background to fly a 90 pax jet, you should at least have the background to fly single pilot IFR 135. Is that too much to ask?

The BillH hypothesis would put a 60 hour pilot in the right seat of a jet if the airlines would allow it. I just don't think that's a great idea.

Though I have no dawg in the fight, as it will never be my problem, I'd say 1200 to 1500 total should be a min to fly 121.

When I was young, 1500/500 was what the commuters (regionals) wanted to fly a metro (RJ). I'd love to see the industry go back to this as a min standard.
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You can take what I said and twist it to make it look wrong. I said less time, not less flight time. If you get all your ratings in 3 or 4 months and end up with 240 tt, or you go to the FBO route, take over 2 years and still end up with 240 or 300 TT, what I said makes much more sense.
And I believe this point is often left out in arguments about fast paced programs. We are all talking less time, not less flight time. If a regional wants to hire some one with 300TT, that is their business, not that of a schools.
Like I said before in other posts, I am now instructing people as THEIR flight instructor, the same exact people whom I was a student with back in Private Pilot theory class. They are now on their instruments, and I am Mr. CFI, CFII, MEI.
I will NEVER argue the point that going the longer route makes you a better pilot, it is a fact that it does. I got my ratings quickly, I am flight instructing and learning way more than I ever did as a student, being paid very good money for it, and mastering what I already knew to a razor sharp edge. I am paying off my loans, and in a position to sit back, and wait for the right opportunity to come along. A regional airline makes no logical sense for me to go to at this point in the game. If a nice corporate job comes along, I am there.
Now the real question is this, What is better? Going the long route or the short route as a STUDENT? It is a whole different question to argue the long or short route as a career. For me, short route as a student, long route as a career is the way to do it. I hope all my friends who went to a regional with low time do not get furloughed, they will have to flight instruct.
 
Re: ATP thoughts from currently attending or most recent gra

SnareMV17 said:
So how do we (future flight training customers) stand a chance?
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There are a TON of other options besides ATP. If the price was 60K when I went, I would not have gone.
 
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