Douglas
Old School KSUX
Looks possible, yeah.
ATP Seminole Fleet
- Thread starter Lynxman
- Start date
Looks possible, yeah.
OhioStatePilot
Well-Known Member
It seemed like an easy mistake to make, at least to me.
Now just for curiosity, does anyone who's been there remember what oil goes in the Seminole at ATP?
deadstick
Well-Known Member
The AD specifies that the SAIB must be complied with..."As with Textron Lycoming additive, LW-16702, these additized engine lubricating oils must be replaced at each 50-hour oil service interval to replenish the additive contained in the oil."
The oil has to be changes every 50 hrs and the filter has to be cut every 100 to inspect for metal. IIRC, this stems from the old H2AD (1977-80 172N) engine problem with the cam/lifter corrosion and excessive wear. There was no lubrication at start-up on the cam and you'd get metal on metal until the oil got flowing. This was particularly troublesome for hangar queens.
IF this all is true, I cannot believe it went on for so long.
The oil has to be changes every 50 hrs and the filter has to be cut every 100 to inspect for metal. IIRC, this stems from the old H2AD (1977-80 172N) engine problem with the cam/lifter corrosion and excessive wear. There was no lubrication at start-up on the cam and you'd get metal on metal until the oil got flowing. This was particularly troublesome for hangar queens.
IF this all is true, I cannot believe it went on for so long.
OhioStatePilot
Well-Known Member
Wow, good point. I think I need to work on my reading comprehension skills...
deadstick
Well-Known Member
I dunno about that. I think a problem might be that there are THREE documents concerning one issue: a SB, SAIB, and AD.
The thing is that Lycoming allows engines that run 40 hrs/mo (documented not averaged) to extend the TBO by 200 hours. If the big problem with these engines is that the cam/lifters lose lubrication when they sit a lot, why not institute a similar limitation. I imagine the ATP fleet would meet similar stipulation, but AFAIK, there is no exemption.
Hopefully this will quash some of the dang debate here. I wonder if anyone actually bothered to read the freakin AD?
"b. To prevent excessive wear and oil system contamination associated with hydraulic lifters spalling on O-320-H, and O-360-E, LO-360-E, TO-360-E and LTO-360-E series engines, accomplish the following:
1. At the next engine oil change but no later than 50 hours in service after the effective date of this AD, and at each subsequent oil change or 50-hour interval, whichever occurs earlier, add one 6-ounce can of Lycoming P/N LW-16702 oil additive in accordance with Lycoming Service Bulletin No. 446B.
2. Within the next 50 hours in service after the effective date of this AD and at every subsequent oil change thereafter, not to exceed 100-hour intervals, inspect lubrication system for metal contaminants. Inspection of the lubrication system consists of visual examination for minute particles of metal suspended in the oil, examination of the engine oil suction screen for presence of metal particles and the inspection of the external full flow oil filter for metal particles by cutting it open so that the pleated element can be unfolded and examined. If ferrous metal contaminants are detected during the above inspections, the camshaft lobes and all hydraulic lifters must be inspected for wear or loss of metal. Replace the camshaft and hydraulic lifters found to have such indications."
I want everyone to look at the black, THEN read the red. If they are still changing the oil every 100hrs, THEY ARE IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE AD.
"b. To prevent excessive wear and oil system contamination associated with hydraulic lifters spalling on O-320-H, and O-360-E, LO-360-E, TO-360-E and LTO-360-E series engines, accomplish the following:
1. At the next engine oil change but no later than 50 hours in service after the effective date of this AD, and at each subsequent oil change or 50-hour interval, whichever occurs earlier, add one 6-ounce can of Lycoming P/N LW-16702 oil additive in accordance with Lycoming Service Bulletin No. 446B.
2. Within the next 50 hours in service after the effective date of this AD and at every subsequent oil change thereafter, not to exceed 100-hour intervals, inspect lubrication system for metal contaminants. Inspection of the lubrication system consists of visual examination for minute particles of metal suspended in the oil, examination of the engine oil suction screen for presence of metal particles and the inspection of the external full flow oil filter for metal particles by cutting it open so that the pleated element can be unfolded and examined. If ferrous metal contaminants are detected during the above inspections, the camshaft lobes and all hydraulic lifters must be inspected for wear or loss of metal. Replace the camshaft and hydraulic lifters found to have such indications."
I want everyone to look at the black, THEN read the red. If they are still changing the oil every 100hrs, THEY ARE IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE AD.
deadstick
Well-Known Member
First you have to go to the AD, then the SB, and that points you to the SAIB. The thing that is critical is the level/concentration of the additive (50 hrs) and checking for metal in the filter (100 hrs).
The AD was 1980, the SB's latest version was 7/08, and the SAIB (which lists methods of compliance with the AD) was dated 4/09. Mx action is required at the 50 hr mark post oil change to comply with the AD. The part I quoted earlier was from the Background section and seems to contradict the Recommendation section. There are other methods of complying with the AD, but they can't do nothing. According to the SAIB, at 50 hrs, at a minimum, they have to add the addtive if the oil isn't changed.
The AD was 1980, the SB's latest version was 7/08, and the SAIB (which lists methods of compliance with the AD) was dated 4/09. Mx action is required at the 50 hr mark post oil change to comply with the AD. The part I quoted earlier was from the Background section and seems to contradict the Recommendation section. There are other methods of complying with the AD, but they can't do nothing. According to the SAIB, at 50 hrs, at a minimum, they have to add the addtive if the oil isn't changed.
OhioStatePilot
Well-Known Member
Just look at b, 1.
R
Roger, Roger
Guest
I'd be very surprised if they weren't changing oil and filter every 50 hours anyway, and cutting the filter to check for metal. Granted, because of the AD they can't do 51 hours if the airplane happens to be needed, but I'd bet that what happened here (if anything) was a paperwork snafu.
wjmiller3
Well-Known Member
Nope, ATP changes oil every 100 hrs on all planes in the fleet. At least up to last Feb when I quit working there..
R
Roger, Roger
Guest
Really. That's the first I've heard of a training fleet doing 100 hour oil changes. My previous employer was 50 hours, as are all the planes we take care of at the shop. IIRC that is Lycoming's recommendation but I'd venture to say ATP knows what they're doing.
wjmiller3
Well-Known Member
They are the only place I have ever worked that didn't do 50 hrs:dunno:
Ok going back to what was told to me by my friend. He told me that this was a complete error on the Master Fleet Mechanic. I'm guessing that outstation mx and normal mx never really looked into this, and whoever is in charge of mx looked over it for whaterever reason. This is due to fleet mechanic was the exact words from my friends mouth.
OK, here is what I am gathering from the AD, and the SAIB. I have been know to shoot from the hip from time to time, but this was my interp. of it.
AD80-04-03 R2
(b)(1) says to me, the AD must be complied with w/in the next 50 hours after the date of issue?
(b)(2) says that you have up to 100 hrs, but it must be complied w/ w/in 50 hrs. for the oil filter inspection?
The SIAB says at the top that it is no regulatory, it's for information only.
And then I saw that (b)(1) says it must be complied w/every 50 hours (every 50hrs or each oil change, whatever is 1st).
Man, my foot tastes horrible!
AD80-04-03 R2
(b)(1) says to me, the AD must be complied with w/in the next 50 hours after the date of issue?
(b)(2) says that you have up to 100 hrs, but it must be complied w/ w/in 50 hrs. for the oil filter inspection?
The SIAB says at the top that it is no regulatory, it's for information only.
And then I saw that (b)(1) says it must be complied w/every 50 hours (every 50hrs or each oil change, whatever is 1st).
Man, my foot tastes horrible!
OhioStatePilot
Well-Known Member
OK, here is what I am gathering from the AD, and the SAIB. I have been know to shoot from the hip from time to time, but this was my interp. of it.
AD80-04-03 R2
(b)(1) says to me, the AD must be complied with w/in the next 50 hours after the date of issue?
(b)(2) says that you have up to 100 hrs, but it must be complied w/ w/in 50 hrs. for the oil filter inspection?
The SIAB says at the top that it is no regulatory, it's for information only.
And then I saw that (b)(1) says it must be complied w/every 50 hours (every 50hrs or each oil change, whatever is 1st).
Man, my foot tastes horrible!
Dude, no worries. It happens!
trafficinsight
Well-Known Member
OK, here is what I am gathering from the AD, and the SAIB. I have been know to shoot from the hip from time to time, but this was my interp. of it.
AD80-04-03 R2
(b)(1) says to me, the AD must be complied with w/in the next 50 hours after the date of issue?
(b)(2) says that you have up to 100 hrs, but it must be complied w/ w/in 50 hrs. for the oil filter inspection?
The SIAB says at the top that it is no regulatory, it's for information only.
And then I saw that (b)(1) says it must be complied w/every 50 hours (every 50hrs or each oil change, whatever is 1st).
Man, my foot tastes horrible!
b(1) says within 50 hours TIS from the date of the AD and intervals of not more than 50 hours after that or at each oil change, whichever comes sooner.
They could not change the oil and just add the additive and still be in compliance.