ATP-MEL: Checkride to operate SEL?

Pilot Fighter

Pilot Fighter

Well-Known Member
Like many military guys, I obtained a Commercial-MEL and subsequently, an ATP-MEL. I don't have much of an interest in flying GA, but thought it might be fun to rent a plane while on a beach vacation. I've rented an SEL in the past with just a rental checkride, but I don't think that was legal.

If I take an ATP-checkride in a Cessna 210, would that give me SEL privileges in all SEL aircraft or would it be limited to just 210's? If I'm correct, PPL-SEL or Com-SEL would require both written and a checkride, as opposed to just an ATP checkride.
 
ATP-SEL would grant you privileges in any single, not just C210's.

You could do the ride in a C172 or PA28, doesn't matter. Basic maneuvers, four approaches and systems knowledge.
 
I came out of the military with a Commercial MEL that I converted to an ATP MEL. The military didn't train us to the standards of a SEL. If yours is like mine, you'll need to get a CFI and perform the SEL required manuvers in order to be legal. Your MEL might not certify you as a SEL pilot.
 
CFI A&P said:
ATP-SEL would grant you privileges in any single, not just C210's.

You could do the ride in a C172 or PA28, doesn't matter. Basic maneuvers, four approaches and systems knowledge.
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Do I need to formalize anything beyond the logbook endorsement?
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Like many military guys, I obtained a Commercial-MEL and subsequently, an ATP-MEL. I don't have much of an interest in flying GA, but thought it might be fun to rent a plane while on a beach vacation. I've rented an SEL in the past with just a rental checkride, but I don't think that was legal.

If I take an ATP-checkride in a Cessna 210, would that give me SEL privileges in all SEL aircraft or would it be limited to just 210's? If I'm correct, PPL-SEL or Com-SEL would require both written and a checkride, as opposed to just an ATP checkride.
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I have only seen your situation once or twice, but unless I am mistaken you will need to take a checkride with a examiner. Your license need to say SEL on it as well. If you rented a single engine aircraft on your own and crashed it, that will be one other FBO you can scratch off because of lawsuits!. My ATP reads SEL and MEL. The best advice is asking a FAA guy/woman to make sure. The case I am referring to was with my last employer in which a FAA inspector caught one of our new pilots on a ramp check with only a ATP-MEL, he needed at least a commercial SEL for hire.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Do I need to formalize anything beyond the logbook endorsement?
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Well, where ever you go to rent/ borrow/ steal someone's SEL airplane for the checkride will probably want to check you out. This will give you the chance to practice those maneuvers with a CFI.

As far as the correct endorsements, call the DPE you're going to use. Get the answer right from the horse's mouth.

I have a buddy that did just this for his neighbor. The neighbor was a F-15 pilot, followed by an airline career and then built an experimental to fly once he retired. Flew for forty years, never had SEL on his certificate until retirement.
 
CFI A&P said:
Well, where ever you go to rent/ borrow/ steal someone's SEL airplane for the checkride will probably want to check you out. This will give you the chance to practice those maneuvers with a CFI.

As far as the correct endorsements, call the DPE you're going to use. Get the answer right from the horse's mouth.

I have a buddy that did just this for his neighbor. The neighbor was a F-15 pilot, followed by an airline career and then built an experimental to fly once he retired. Flew for forty years, never had SEL on his certificate until retirement.
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I'm in the same boat as your neighbor, except I was never a pilot during my service. I did however manage to beg, borrow, and steal a couple of hundred PIC hours at taxpayer expense.
 
Nat E. Dred said:
How in the world is this legit?
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You have certainly voiced your opinion on the matter. The short answer is that it's legit because the FAA accepted it. I will concede it is an interesting question. The S-3 was unique in that it was the only Navy aircraft with dual controls that wasn't normally crewed with two naval aviators. Furthermore, I think it was the only case where NFOs were authorized to pilot the aircraft (under very limited circumstances). The Navy formalized the role in its COTAC (copilot/tactical coordinator) designation. Other than the S-3, the FAA has accepted SIC time from Air Force F-4 WSOs (Navy F-4s did not have dual controls). Of my 3000 NFO hours, only about 1100 were in the right seat as COTAC. Like myself, my father is also a retired NFO. In the 60s and 70s, an NFO with a commercial ticket had a good chance at an immediate FO position with the airlines. I never had an interest in an airline gig, so I'm not sure what kind of scrutiny my résumé would have invited. My personal opinion is that most SIC time is bullsh7t time. In my case, although my stick time was limited, I was in a high performance, complex, multi-engined, jet aircraft flown in all weather conditions. I think that was quality SIC time. You're welcome to your opinion of which you have voiced.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
. I've rented an SEL in the past with just a rental checkride, but I don't think that was legal.
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It wasn't, but it's not unheard of this happening. I know of at least one former military pilot who flew Cessna Caravans for a 135 operator when he did not have his Comm SEL.

You can add SEL to your ATP by flying with a CFI and passing the checkride. Then you will be able to fly anything with fixed wings and doesn't float.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
I'd hate to bust a checkride. I think I'll go up with a kid and practice a bit before the checkride.
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Not going to lie, I wouldn't expect to be able to go out and nail power-off 180's to PTS standard in 1 hour (especially in something like a 210). But, if your Bob Hoover, you might, so there's a chance.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
You have certainly voiced your opinion on the matter.
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I didn't voice an opinion either way, just surprised by your statement.

Lacking knowledge of the historical precedent, I can't imagine a scenario where a non-pilot would be permitted to log pilot time in a turbojet aircraft. (I do know, however, that early USAF F-4 WSOs were rated pilots, not Navs.) In the civilian world, at least under Parts 121 & 135, an SIC check is required, and the aircraft must require two pilots to begin with (or other certain conditions must be met). Part of that checkout is demonstrating proficiency performing takeoffs and landings, which I suspect you were not permitted to do. In contrast, I imagine copilots of E-2s and even helos had to demonstrate such proficiency.
 
I never thought of myself as a pilot, or even a copilot, just an NFO. In the S-3, I logged my time as COTAC (copilot/tactical coordinator) or TACCO (tactical coordinator). I was a decade into my career before I ever heard that the FAA would count COTAC time as SIC time. I agree it is certainly a liberal interpretation as both training and stick time were minimal. As I mentioned, the S-3 was unique in that it has dual controls and not crewed with two Naval Aviators, as is the case with the E-2, C-2, and patrol aircraft.

That said, in a twenty year Naval career, an NFO learns a bit about aviation and piloting, even if they never touch a stick. It certainly provided a good foundation for my post-retirement career.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Damn, now I'm nervous. Maybe I should rent a King Air. :)
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Granted, I don't know anything about your background beyond what was posted here. Personally for me, with a bunch of experience in a piston single, a power-off 180 can be easy or difficult, depending on the glide characteristics of the airplane. All of mine done in an Arrow were kind of a crapshoot, power off? Turn for the runway now.

As for how a 210 does, I have no idea, maybe a 210 pilot can chime in on that.
 
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