ATP lowered their prices.

[SoonerAv8r]

Sorry to have opened up a can of worms. Like I said I've heard from a few DPE's that its coming. I don't know the exact verbage which is why I omited it from my origional post. But rest assured changes are coming.

 

[killbilly]

I know that they recently changed the Instrument PTS. We currently have the new ones on order but haven't received them yet. Hopefully the changes will be in there.

A change to the PTS is not a change in the hour requirements per the FARs, which is the way I interpreted the remark.

 

[DL31082]

I understand that I was just letting people know that there is a new Instrument PTS out as well, but thanks for correcting me. I see where it came off like I was saying it will be in the new PTS. It should be in the updated FAR/AIM though, which is on the FAA website.

 

[DL31082]

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...iv8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.2.1.4&idno=14

This a link to the FAR's. According to this as of December 31, 2008 there are no changes to the requirements for the instrument rating.

 

[v1valarob]

RAL is still open but the instructors who were there are gone. They replaced them with a couple of guys from JAX.

Just talked to a RAL friend, and got the confirmation. All 3 CFIs were let go. 1 I went through half the program with, 1 was my CFI and 1 was a CFI while I was there and was a great guy.

Apparently they wanted to change the way it ran, so they brought in some JAX guys. Maybe the "country club" of ATP caught up to them. It really sucks though. One of the CFIs has a wife and kid.

I will never recommend ATP RAL again.

 

[mtnflyer]

Yeah, I always liked RAL the best. Even if it was the "country club" location. It seemed like the best learning environment. On x-countries it seemed like you had to walk on egg shells when you were at the other locations. But hey, I've been out of there for many months so who knows what changed.

 

[guywhoflies]

Just talked to a RAL friend, and got the confirmation. All 3 CFIs were let go. 1 I went through half the program with, 1 was my CFI and 1 was a CFI while I was there and was a great guy.

Apparently they wanted to change the way it ran, so they brought in some JAX guys. Maybe the "country club" of ATP caught up to them. It really sucks though. One of the CFIs has a wife and kid.

I will never recommend ATP RAL again.

I didn't know any of the guys out there personally, I remember seeing it on the ATP instructor phone list a little over a month ago. I also don't know the 2 guys who are out there now, but they both did their training out west (1 in PHX, the other in LGB I think) before going to standardization in JAX and then being kept there for about a month.

As far as not recommending RAL again, I wouldn't not recommend it. If it were me, I would tell people that I did my training there but all of the instructors that I trained with are no longer there so I would not be able to comment on it now. If you want to enlighten people as to why none of your instructors are there anymore is up to you.

 

[guywhoflies]

Yeah, I always liked RAL the best. Even if it was the "country club" location. It seemed like the best learning environment. On x-countries it seemed like you had to walk on egg shells when you were at the other locations. But hey, I've been out of there for many months so who knows what changed.

Exactly...things change at ATP locations all the time depending on which instructors have left and who they are replaced by.

In relation to "walking on egg shells", I can understand how you would feel that way. When you go from a location run by instructors (RAL and SUA are prime examples I can think of) where everything is REAL laid back with less pressure to a location which has a manager in place whose job is to monitor the instructors/students to make sure things get done with great efficiency and in strict accordance to ATP policies/procedures (PHX, DFW, ATL, JAX, etc.) you may get that feeling of "walking on egg shells".

 

[mtnflyer]

I understand that. But things do change. Only 3before and now down to 2 instructors is crazy. When I was there less than a year ago there where 7 or 8 instructors. But hey the economy hurts, can't have good times without having the bad ones too.

 

[Snuggles]

Heh they're issuing refunds to existing students too.

Today I received my check for the "fuel rebate of up to $2,500".

$46.36.

I started the private add-on in July and fuel prices have dropped steadily since. I figured I'd be on the lower end of the "up to" amount, but wasn't expecting this. A pretty lame attempt.

Still very happy with the training, though. I finished CFI today (6 months to the day) and I'm headin' home!

 

[dr650]

I'm aware of how expensive ATP's career pilot program is but what about their 10 hour multi engine and CFI package (CFI CFII MEI), total cost for both of them is 12,290? I guess I'll check around but does that sound resonable?

 

[determined2fly]

Looks like ATP lowered their prices. The 90 day fast track went from $57,995 to $54,995. The bigger drop is the private pilot + career pilot program that went from $67990 to $59995. Both are still way more than I paid...but less than guys at ATP are currently paying.

59995...that is hella steep!:crazy:

 

[robair73]

I'm curious as to how the instructors are being compensated these days. I casually saw that they were offering benefits and over $30k a year at one point along with some other incentives. I know when I went through, it was tough times and the instructors were paid $1000/mth with housing. Has the instructor compensation also been adjusted for the times?

 

[Captain_Bob]

Last I heard it was a Base of $2,000/month with bonuses, no bennies.

 

[mhcasey]

Why do people still pay to go to these places? :banghead:

 

[Strychnine]

Why do people still pay to go to these places? :banghead:

Without knowing all of their motives, I can suspect there are probably other people in my situation; where ATP (or another program like it) is the only real option.

I am 29. By the time I get loan(s) straightened out and get there, I will be within a few months of 30, at the least. I do not have SJS. I would rather go everyone's beloved FBO route, and emerge with no debt. However, there are no FBO's that I could find within an hour's drive of me with dedicated instruction. All of the local CFI's are part-time. Access to an aircraft for training requires joining a flying club, they might have reasonable rates but it is also a monthly expense. If I were to do it locally, at a pace that I could afford out of pocket, it would take several years to reach where I would get with ATP in a matter of months. Those are years that I no longer have.

I could get multiple loans to cover a quicker pace at an FBO, but that still leaves me looking for an FBO to do that with, and getting loans. If I must go through all that trouble, I might as well get it done in 5 months. The benefit of a school like ATP is that it takes me away from everything and everyone here; thus removing all distractions. I would not have a dozen decade-old buddies wanting to hit bars every night, a dozen people wanting to start a new band, or a full-time job eating up my time.

I suppose you could ask "Why would anyone realistically want to get into aviation right now?" That is actually fairly simple to answer. I am at least a year away from being in a position where I am looking for anything other than CFI jobs. That gives the economy, and aviation, a year at least to improve before I really even need to worry about the state of it. I would rather be prepared and qualified to jump into an upswing, rather than trying to start then and come in at the end of it.

I am currently a network administrator. That could easily be a promising career, and it pays reasonably well right now. However, it is about as exciting as watching paint dry. Anyone who tells you differently is also about as exciting as watching paint dry. I am good at it, but I do not like it. I do not want to work in IT anymore, right now, and I doubt that is going to change 10 years from now. I have a decade in it already. I am not currently dreaming about making $300k flying 777's across the pond. I maintain no illusions about the current outlook for airline pilot jobs. I want to fly planes, have a tolerable QOL, and make a reasonable living while doing it.

 

[SteveC]

If I were to do it locally, at a pace that I could afford out of pocket, it would take several years to reach where I would get with ATP in a matter of months. Those are years that I no longer have.

Why the rush? I didn't make the switch to flying professionally until I was in my 40's.

I could get multiple loans to cover a quicker pace at an FBO, but that still leaves me looking for an FBO to do that with, and getting loans. If I must go through all that trouble, I might as well get it done in 5 months.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/27591-stevecs-accumulated-loan-rant-posts.html

The benefit of a school like ATP is that it takes me away from everything and everyone here; thus removing all distractions. I would not have a dozen decade-old buddies wanting to hit bars every night, a dozen people wanting to start a new band, or a full-time job eating up my time.

That's a valid point in favor of ATP. I would still caution you against taking on a load of debt that may not be necessary though. If you need an ATP style program it might be smarter to live as frugally as you possibly can while saving as much money as possible before starting the program to reduce the debt load as much as possible. Remember that you need to pay for the program one way or another, and it will be easier to pay on an IT salary than on a First Officer salary, plus you will save a ton of money by not paying interest.

I suppose you could ask "Why would anyone realistically want to get into aviation right now?" That is actually fairly simple to answer. I am at least a year away from being in a position where I am looking for anything other than CFI jobs. That gives the economy, and aviation, a year at least to improve before I really even need to worry about the state of it. I would rather be prepared and qualified to jump into an upswing, rather than trying to start then and come in at the end of it.

I am currently a network administrator. That could easily be a promising career, and it pays reasonably well right now. However, it is about as exciting as watching paint dry. Anyone who tells you differently is also about as exciting as watching paint dry. I am good at it, but I do not like it. I do not want to work in IT anymore, right now, and I doubt that is going to change 10 years from now. I have a decade in it already. I am not currently dreaming about making $300k flying 777's across the pond. I maintain no illusions about the current outlook for airline pilot jobs. I want to fly planes, have a tolerable QOL, and make a reasonable living while doing it.

I think you've started in the right direction, and you're not completely blinded by the desire to fly. That's good, because it takes a level head and a well thought out plan to make a successful career switch. There are a ton of stories on this site about people that have successfully done so, and a lot by people that weren't nearly so successful. It's worth your time and effort to use the Search function to get as many of those stories as possible. Here's one to get you started:

http://forums.jetcareers.com/mind-numbing-topics/25694-quit-now-another-option-career-changing-soon-story.html

Enjoy the site, ask lots of questions, and plan on making some friends here. That happens a lot.

 

[Strychnine]

Why the rush? I didn't make the switch to flying professionally until I was in my 40's.

Good question. The rush is relative to being disgusted with where I am now. Aside from having a "good" job, I have squandered much of the last decade. I could wait, but I do not really need to wait to know that my situation here is not likely to improve. I am basically at the top of my career ladder locally. If I am going to move, I will not be moving to work on computers.

That's a valid point in favor of ATP. I would still caution you against taking on a load of debt that may not be necessary though. If you need an ATP style program it might be smarter to live as frugally as you possibly can while saving as much money as possible before starting the program to reduce the debt load as much as possible. Remember that you need to pay for the program one way or another, and it will be easier to pay on an IT salary than on a First Officer salary, plus you will save a ton of money by not paying interest.

I was actually intending to save as much as I could before going. My goal is to reduce the loan as much as possible, or at least keep it as close to the actual tuition amount as possible. I at least want to have enough saved to cover my existing bills for two years. That gives me two years after I go before I actually have to worry about bills. CFI's might not be paid a fortune, but it is enough to cover a loan payment (which I intend to double as often as possible). Fortunately, my fiance is quite possibly one of the most frugal people I have ever met personally. She can stretch half as much money twice as far as I can.

I think you've started in the right direction, and you're not completely blinded by the desire to fly. That's good, because it takes a level head and a well thought out plan to make a successful career switch. There are a ton of stories on this site about people that have successfully done so, and a lot by people that weren't nearly so successful. It's worth your time and effort to use the Search function to get as many of those stories as possible. Here's one to get you started:

I have been reading about a million threads here and at airlinepilotforums. I have the bug to fly, I always have. However, I am realistic about it. I know it is difficult and unstable. I have also noticed some common elements among many of the people who succeed at it and many of those who do not. Thank you for your response. I was expecting to be slammed by the FBO crowd or the "avoid aviation careers like the plague!" crowd.

 

[wjmiller3]

Without knowing all of their motives, I can suspect there are probably other people in my situation; where ATP (or another program like it) is the only real option.

I am 29. By the time I get loan(s) straightened out and get there, I will be within a few months of 30, at the least. I do not have SJS. I would rather go everyone's beloved FBO route, and emerge with no debt. However, there are no FBO's that I could find within an hour's drive of me with dedicated instruction. All of the local CFI's are part-time. Access to an aircraft for training requires joining a flying club, they might have reasonable rates but it is also a monthly expense. If I were to do it locally, at a pace that I could afford out of pocket, it would take several years to reach where I would get with ATP in a matter of months. Those are years that I no longer have.

I could get multiple loans to cover a quicker pace at an FBO, but that still leaves me looking for an FBO to do that with, and getting loans. If I must go through all that trouble, I might as well get it done in 5 months. The benefit of a school like ATP is that it takes me away from everything and everyone here; thus removing all distractions. I would not have a dozen decade-old buddies wanting to hit bars every night, a dozen people wanting to start a new band, or a full-time job eating up my time.

I suppose you could ask "Why would anyone realistically want to get into aviation right now?" That is actually fairly simple to answer. I am at least a year away from being in a position where I am looking for anything other than CFI jobs. That gives the economy, and aviation, a year at least to improve before I really even need to worry about the state of it. I would rather be prepared and qualified to jump into an upswing, rather than trying to start then and come in at the end of it.

I am currently a network administrator. That could easily be a promising career, and it pays reasonably well right now. However, it is about as exciting as watching paint dry. Anyone who tells you differently is also about as exciting as watching paint dry. I am good at it, but I do not like it. I do not want to work in IT anymore, right now, and I doubt that is going to change 10 years from now. I have a decade in it already. I am not currently dreaming about making $300k flying 777's across the pond. I maintain no illusions about the current outlook for airline pilot jobs. I want to fly planes, have a tolerable QOL, and make a reasonable living while doing it.

Well put.... If you would change the age to 34, and the career to tire manufacturing, that was my story 2 years ago.

 

[Strychnine]

Well put.... If you would change the age to 34, and the career to tire manufacturing, that was my story 2 years ago.

I have wasted much of my 20's. I wanted to do this at a couple of different times, but women, band, or finances always kept me from being able to and/or having the drive to do it. My current situation allows me to take only the expenses of a car down there with me right now. If I do not do it now, I will just end up finding another one of those southwest Georgia ruts that people usually find themselves in. This is a dying town. Speaking of tire manufacturing, one of the few industrial operations here (Cooper) is now shutting down within the year.

I get a laugh out of some of the threads with people complaining about the lifestyle. That first year regional FO job might not pay worth a damn, but at least the hotel you have to stay in is paid for. I spent over two years on the road in a band touring out of a van. We rarely knew where the next meal was coming from, where the gas to get to the next gig was coming from, or when all of that hard work and sacrifice might even come close to paying off. When we could not afford a hotel and got tired of crashing in the van, we would go to a local theater, get tickets (usually one of the LOTR movies at that time), and sleep in the theater. Living that way is scary. It is usually going from one disaster to another, but I got to take a crack at something that most people only dream about when they start that garage band with high school buddies.

That meager FO salary is not a pay cut that I look forward to, but I have already done worse than their QOL for much less money. I know that a good career is there to be had, but dues must be paid to get there. I am not worried about getting married again or having children. I am not looking to plant roots, start a family, and have 9-5 life. I have never had roots. I have moved around almost my entire life.