ATP-CTP & the Regulatory Climate

[Flyinthrew]

I'm newish on JC and finally have lurked enough and have processed enough knowledge/gouge to ask a serious question. I also tried out APC but slowly backed out of the room when I realized I was in the wrong neighborhood.

Anyway, I'm retiring from the Marine Corps in 48 months, and my main objective career-wise is to walk into a major. I feel like I have a proper plan in place, but I can't figure out when best to go to ATP-CTP.

Is there any legislation or heavy lobbying from groups to suggest that anything will change about the ATP or the ATP-CTP?

Are there any economic forces that suggest that the ATP-CTP will be cheaper or more expensive in 24-36 months versus today?

And yeah, I was asleep at the wheel when it came time to be grandfathered in under the old ATP rules. My loss.

 

[z987k]

Is there any legislation or heavy lobbying from groups to suggest that anything will change about the ATP or the ATP-CTP? No.

Are there any economic forces that suggest that the ATP-CTP will be cheaper or more expensive in 24-36 months versus today? Maybe a bit more from normal price raising and inflation etc.

 

[Finny]

If you go to a regional airline before being picked up by a major, your ATP-CTP will be covered by the airline. Once it becomes the norm for people to need it there will not be such controversy over it.

 

[Flyinthrew]

Thanks for the replies. So no real difference between attending the CTP now or closer to when an ATP is needed.

As far as having a regional pay for it, I'm not a never say never sort of guy, but if going to a regional to fly becomes the right choice, I probably won't know it until it's too late. I suppose waiting to see if the market forces regional pay up even more over the next few years would also be good.

 

[z987k]

Thanks for the replies. So no real difference between attending the CTP now or closer to when an ATP is needed.

As far as having a regional pay for it, I'm not a never say never sort of guy, but if going to a regional to fly becomes the right choice, I probably won't know it until it's too late. I suppose waiting to see if the market forces regional pay up even more over the next few years would also be good.

You'd probably just be going there for a handful of months. About 2 months for the training and type, and then a couple on the line and OE. If you'd otherwise be able to go from where you are now to a major(assuming you had an ATP), you should be able to after a few months at a regional to. Make them pay for it.
I mean, it's not that uncommon for people to quit before or just after OE.

 

[Hacker15e]

No, I don't believe there will be any "mil-comp" option for getting the ATP, nor do I believe we are going to see a time soon when a mil pilot without an ATP will be able to be hired by a major, and have the major include CTP/ATP written/ATP as part of the training program. So, bottom line, it is going to be on you to get your ATP within the next year (if you, indeed, want to step right in to a major airline job upon retirement).

I posted this over on APC regarding the question of whether or not to pay for ATP/CTP out of pocket, or to go for a short time to a regional and let them pick up the tab:

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military/91325-pay-atp-let-regionals-pay.html

Don't forget what you (hopefully) learned in a college economics class long ago about the "time value of money".

Consider the finances of both situations:

- You go to a regional airline and let them soak up the cost of your ATP and type rating. You "save" $6,000, but in the process have to live on regional airline training pay for 3-4 months while you go through the program (just for argument's sake, let's call that $2,000/month of pay, but that's pretty generous). Most of the regional hiring bonuses require you to stay at the airline for a time after training in order to cash in, so you're not even going to get most of that bonus because you're planning on leaving the regional quickly. You leave in short order to a major airline, and live with a couple months of training pay (let's call that $4,000/month) before you get to the line and a major-airline-level paycheck (4-6-9 months later than you would if you'd been hired by a major directly out of the AF).

- You pay out of pocket for an ATP, (-$6,000) but are able to get hired at a major right away as soon as you leave the AF. You make major-airline training pay during training ($4,000/month instead of $2,000/month at the regional) and then move on to the major league salary.

Do the math. By the time you get on the line at a major airline, which route is more financially beneficial? What about putting a pricetag on the months of potential seniority lost at the major job during the detour through the regionals?

If someone is riding a desk for their last years in the Air Force, and need the currency/recency to move on to the majors as well as needing a CTP and/or an ATP, then of course it is smart to go get hired at a regional and let them soak up your CTP and ATP costs.

If you're going to be current when you leave the military, and you have the real possibility of going to the majors immediately upon starting terminal leave, it isn't really even a question about which path is more financially smart.

Also, this:
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military/92097-af-airlines-13.html

It is worth your time to run the numbers to see if it is the smartest financial decision to foot the bill yourself for the CTP and ATP.

There's a little but of catch-22 to the discussion, because if you don't have your ATP already, the majors aren't going to call you to an interview in the first place. But, you still have to honestly assess what you think your actual chances are of getting hired without that 100 hours of turbine/multi currency (and not what you hope the chances are).

If there's a realistic chance that you'll have to fly for the regionals, just save your dollars ($10K or upwards out of pocket, depending on who you use for the CTP and ATP) and let them pay for the CTP and ATP as part of their training.

There are a lot of military pilots who, frankly, think they're "above" working at a regional, and don't want to believe that they might have to in order to get an interview call from the majors. Some that I know were in denial about it until they were months into terminal leave, with no interview calls from anyone they'd applied to. As I said earlier, although the finances certainly suck, the benefit of the paid CTP/ATP, as well as the 121 experience in your brain and on your application, could be worth it.

Right now, there are very few non-current guys getting interview calls from majors. It IS happening, but it is by far the exception rather than the rule. None of us knows if that trend is going to change (for better or worse) over the next year, so you're just going to have to keep gathering intel on it until you have to pull the trigger on buying a CTP then an ATP, or just going to a regional instead. IMHO make that decision no later than 6 months prior to your terminal leave date.

I recently retired from the USAF and transitioned to the airlines. I all ready had my ATP when I retired, but I was non-current (desk job on my last assignment) and spent a year at the regionals before moving on to a job at the majors. All told, it was actually a good experience flying at the regionals, so don't make the mistake of thinking that, as a retired military pilot, you're too good/experienced/high-paid for a regional stint.

 

[Flyinthrew]

No, I don't believe there will be any "mil-comp" option for getting the ATP, nor do I believe we are going to see a time soon when a mil pilot without an ATP will be able to be hired by a major, and have the major include CTP/ATP written/ATP as part of the training program. So, bottom line, it is going to be on you to get your ATP within the next year (if you, indeed, want to step right in to a major airline job upon retirement.

I posted this over on APC regarding the question of whether or not to pay for ATP/CTP out of pocket, or to go for a short time to a regional and let them pick up the tab:

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military/91325-pay-atp-let-regionals-pay.html


Also, this:
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military/92097-af-airlines-13.html


I recently retired from the USAF and transitioned to the airlines. I all ready had my ATP when I retired, but I was non-current (desk job on my last assignment) and spent a year at the regionals before moving on to a job at the majors. All told, it was actually a good experience flying at the regionals, so don't make the mistake of thinking that, as a retired military pilot, you're too good/experienced/high-paid for a regional stint.

That's pretty much what I was tracking as far as not using the regional to get the ATP. The gist of my original post was I have 4 years left, should I get my ATP now or later. Of course, the Marine Corps could do anything with me so maybe I'll hold off in case I get that super special desk job which robs my recency.

 

[Hacker15e]

That's pretty much what I was tracking as far as not using the regional to get the ATP. The gist of my original post was I have 4 years left, should I get my ATP now or later. Of course, the Marine Corps could do anything with me so maybe I'll hold off in case I get that super special desk job which robs my recency.

Ultimately, that's going to be a big part of the picture -- what your currency/recency is in that last 12-18 months prior to retirement. Then you'll have to decide what to do. Let's not forget, also, that the hiring picture in 3 years could be substantially different than it is now. Who knows what the industry will look like; in 1999, the future of the airline industry looked ridiculously good and 3 years later it began the slide into "the lost decade".

That being said, I think it is inevitable that the cost of a CTP course will come down, just given the sheer volume of people (military, mostly) who will need it (most civilian dudes will get it as part of their regional training program). You should start banking money -- I'd shoot for $6K-$10K -- now in preparation for needing to pay for it in another couple years, though. Better to have it than to not need it.

 

[Flyinthrew]

A little birdie set this on my window sill.

http://news.delta.com/new-pilot-certification-program-available-through-delta

I consider it a peculiar move for a legacy to offer the ATP-CTP. They're not exactly in the business of training the masses. The only things I can come up with are 1) they have enough spare capacity and the numbers at the bottom of the spreadsheet say that it adds enough value to that spare capacity and 2) the dreamer in me wonders if they're setting it up to hire and train otherwise fully qualified mil guys once the pool of grandfathered individuals runs thin. Of course, unless all of the other majors start doing the same thing, an applicant is really putting all the eggs in one basket by skipping the CTP/written and only applying to Delta.

Does anybody else know anything about why this move was made?