ATP Cross Country Time with Safety Pilot

caliginousface

caliginousface

Frank N. Beans
Hey guys,
Looking for some reg interpretation here. I'm about 30 hours short of PIC XC for the ATP, my question is if I split time with somebody, since no landing is required, can both of us then log XC? Me acting as safety pilot, since no landing is required by definition, I can log XC. Then, as sole manipulator, obviously I can log XC and the other can still log PIC for their time building purposes.

I'd like to get paid for my time in the plane as a CFI, but time is running out before part 61 ATP rides come to an end.
 
Just to add on to your question. Is the 500 hrs required cross country time HAVE to be PIC? Or if (as a CFI) I ride with a private or commercial pilot who is time building, can i log it as dual given + total + total X/C (not PIC)? Im about to take a 20 hour cross country trip with a private pilot who is acting as PIC and Ill be right seat providing dual given (in exchange for the free ride and the cross country time) but want to know if that will count towards ATP 500 hour req? How about if he is under the hood?

According to the regs it says "500 hours of cross country time" (no mention of PIC) then later on it says "100 hours of total time shall be PIC X/C" (which i already have).

I was gonna start my own thread but i think it fits in well with your question... Either way, I think your plan will work for your time building purposes.
 
There's no reliable answer I can point to on this. My guess is that you shouldn't rely too much on the lack of a required landing. The history of the Chief Counsel's interpretation suggests to me that hanging their hat on the landing was just a way to get to the result they wanted - no cross country time for safety pilots. So I'd be very hesitant to count it in this case.

As a CFI giving instruction, though, I would feel more comfortable about counting it. Again nothing specific I can point to.
 
PropSettin' said:
Just to add on to your question. Is the 500 hrs required cross country time HAVE to be PIC? Or if (as a CFI) I ride with a private or commercial pilot who is time building, can i log it as dual given + total + total X/C (not PIC)? Im about to take a 20 hour cross country trip with a private pilot who is acting as PIC and Ill be right seat providing dual given (in exchange for the free ride and the cross country time) but want to know if that will count towards ATP 500 hour req? How about if he is under the hood?
Click to expand...



You're all set with logging time as you have planned, but it's unfortunate you're not getting paid for that trip.

According to the regs it says "500 hours of cross country time" (no mention of PIC) then later on it says "100 hours of total time shall be PIC X/C" (which i already have).
Click to expand...

You know what, I thought it said 500 PIC, I have thought this forever. Looking back at the wording, it does not say PIC. Wow, I feel like an idiot.
[/quote]
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
There's no reliable answer I can point to on this. My guess is that you shouldn't rely too much on the lack of a required landing. The history of the Chief Counsel's interpretation suggests to me that hanging their hat on the landing was just a way to get to the result they wanted - no cross country time for safety pilots. So I'd be very hesitant to count it in this case.

As a CFI giving instruction, though, I would feel more comfortable about counting it. Again nothing specific I can point to.
Click to expand...

Yeah it's a very loop hole derived answer, thanks for the comment thought, I agree in being hesitant.
 
PropSettin' said:
Just to add on to your question. Is the 500 hrs required cross country time HAVE to be PIC? Or if (as a CFI) I ride with a private or commercial pilot who is time building, can i log it as dual given + total + total X/C (not PIC)?
Click to expand...
What's the difference? If you are a CFI giving instruction your time is always loggable as PIC time.

The FAA counts loggable PIC time, not acting PIC time. That's the whole idea of logging and acting being different.

(That's not an answer to the cross country question, just the PIC piece)
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
What's the difference? If you are a CFI giving instruction your time is always loggable as PIC time.

The FAA counts loggable PIC time, not acting PIC time. That's the whole idea of logging and acting being different.

(That's not an answer to the cross country question, just the PIC piece)
Click to expand...

This goes against what I have been taught. If I am sitting right seat with a private or commerical pilot in the left I am not a required crew member. Therefore I cannot log PIC. I can give instruction (i.e. advanced/refresher training) but I am not required to be there. Under the hood, yes i am required to be there (therefore PIC). But in VFR with private / comm rated pilot in the left seat, I am not needed.
 
PropSettin' said:
This goes against what I have been taught. If I am sitting right seat with a private or commerical pilot in the left I am not a required crew member. Therefore I cannot log PIC. I can give instruction (i.e. advanced/refresher training) but I am not required to be there. Under the hood, yes i am required to be there (therefore PIC). But in VFR with private / comm rated pilot in the left seat, I am not needed.
Click to expand...


There is a lot of ignorance on topics such as this. The FAA didn't help with their logging vs acting as PIC stance, as well as that random safety pilot XC time letter of interpretation that MidlifeFlyer is referencing. It would pay dividends to just crack open the regs yourself. AFAIK, 61.51 is the only reg which governs pilot logbooks.


(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.
Click to expand...
 
PropSettin' said:
This goes against what I have been taught. If I am sitting right seat with a private or commerical pilot in the left I am not a required crew member. Therefore I cannot log PIC. I can give instruction (i.e. advanced/refresher training) but I am not required to be there. Under the hood, yes i am required to be there (therefore PIC). But in VFR with private / comm rated pilot in the left seat, I am not needed.
Click to expand...
I have no idea what you've been tauight. But your authority to log PIC time as in instructor is not related to being a required crewmember or anything other than acting as an authorized instructor. Look at FAR 61.51(e)(3).

It rarely surprises me that some pilots, including CFIs, have limited knowledge of some of the more esoteric logging issues. But is is very surprising to come across a CFI who wasn't aware of the reg that's the entire basis for building time though instruction.
 
As a CFI, anytime you're acting as a CFI would be loggable as PIC, no matter who the person in the left seat is, unless you don't have a current medical, in which case you can't act as PIC. That's right out of the regs in 61.51e.

As for XC time outside of instructing, you can't log it as a safety pilot, as you didn't perform the takeoff and landing as sole manipulator (regardless of where the landing(s) is(are) performed). You'll need to take into account more than just 61.51, it's also 61.1, the definitions of XC time.

I'm in the same boat as many, just about 1200TT, but only about 300 50nmXC, and having a hell of a time building it...i.e. paying for it. I have offers to act as safety pilot, but I'd rather just go solo and log both legs PIC XC, and not think about it.

There are several LOIs from the FAA which discuss how you can't log XC. Trust me on that :( The break down of them that I interpreted was that if you perform the takeoff and landing (i.e. not a safety pilot), assuming post-CPL, you log:
  1. a flight 50nm away straight line distance, with or without a stop = XC towards the ATP
  2. a flight to another airport, 800nm away or next door = XC towards 135 PIC minimums
  3. bottom line, trying to build XC with other pilots who aren't your student isn't possible, or economic.
Tips I'd give to other CFIs: Don't waste your money being a safety pilot, and have your students land at other airports when you can. But don't ever model lessons after what you need, only what the student needs. That's just shady!
 
sounddoc said:
As a CFI, anytime you're acting as a CFI would be loggable as PIC, no matter who the person in the left seat is, unless you don't have a current medical, in which case you can't act as PIC. That's right out of the regs in 61.51e.
Click to expand...
The medical part is wrong. A CFI giving instruction does not have to have a current medical. No, without a current medical, the CFI can't act as PIC or as a required crewmember, but acting as PIC has nothing to do with logging PIC.


FAR 61.51(e)(3), logging PIC as an instructor has only two requirement:
  • the CFI is serving as the authorized instructor in an operation
  • the CFI is rated to act as pilot in command of the aircraft (note: "rated" not "qualified." IOW, does the applicable aircraft rating appear on the back of the CFI's certificates)
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
The medical part is wrong. A CFI giving instruction does not have to have a current medical. No, without a current medical, the CFI can't act as PIC or as a required crewmember, but acting as PIC has nothing to do with logging PIC.
Click to expand...

ah, right...it's one of those mental feedback loops i get caught in sometimes - if you can't act as PIC, then you can't log it, which as you said (and I do know) are mutually exclusive.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top