ATP/American Flyers CFI Program - Input Greatly Appreciated

[mshunter]

Re: ATP/American Flyers CFI Program - Input Greatly Apprecia

How is any of this even relevant? Dispatch always tries to get you to go, but your PIC you should have told them no.

Now back to the original thread. Vegas is not the only CFI location at ATP. They have the CFI school at both ATL and JAX. I went through the location in ATL. The biggest thing you need to know is that you need to have a solid knowledge base going in. Don't expect them to teach you everything in a week, it's not going to happen. The course is one week of studying and then one week of checkrides. It's not that bad if you study a lot ahead of time.

the revelance was to bring up the fact that the guy at vegas CFI school who i cant remeber his name was useless, and an idot. that was the revelance. i was providing the only example of input he provided to anyone of us at vegas. i hope that the other cfi schools ATP runs are worthwhile. I had a great experince through ATP, as did you. I just want those to know who do ATP on the west coast to know to show up well prepared, and don't expect frank to help with anything, other than a signoff.

 

[guywhoflies]

Re: ATP/American Flyers CFI Program - Input Greatly Apprecia

the revelance was to bring up the fact that the guy at vegas CFI school who i cant remeber his name was useless, and an idot. that was the revelance. i was providing the only example of input he provided to anyone of us at vegas. i hope that the other cfi schools ATP runs are worthwhile. I had a great experince through ATP, as did you. I just want those to know who do ATP on the west coast to know to show up well prepared, and don't expect frank to help with anything, other than a signoff.

How do you know the guy is still there??? He may be, he may not. As other people have said, there are other choices: DFW, ATL, and JAX. They are all different because they are all taught by different people. Every instructor focuses on different things, just like every examiner has certain things they stress over others.

Another thing, as mentioned previously, the ENTIRE cfi process (MEI, CFII, CFI-SE) is designed to be two weeks, not just the MEI. You should have found that out from Jamal, Ryan, and all the other peole in PHX before you went. Sorry if you were surprised to find out that you had a check ride so soon, but that means you did not prepare yourself enough beforehand. Anybody (students or instructors) in PHX could have told you before you went up to Vegas to be ready for your MEI in a week. That is pretty standard.

I would tell the original poster to visit the location you are thinking about attending (either ATP or American Flyers). Get a feel for the instructors and talk to the STUDENTS that are there doing what you will be doing (Don't talk to an instrument student if you are going to CFI school, talk to the CFI students!). Don't listen to any of us, we can give you our unique experiences but we may learn in different ways compared to you and we may "click" with instructors that you would not "click" with and vice versa. Good luck in whatever you choose.

 

[mshunter]

Re: ATP/American Flyers CFI Program - Input Greatly Apprecia

How do you know the guy is still there??? He may be, he may not. As other people have said, there are other choices: DFW, ATL, and JAX. They are all different because they are all taught by different people. Every instructor focuses on different things, just like every examiner has certain things they stress over others.

Another thing, as mentioned previously, the ENTIRE cfi process (MEI, CFII, CFI-SE) is designed to be two weeks, not just the MEI. You should have found that out from Jamal, Ryan, and all the other peole in PHX before you went. Sorry if you were surprised to find out that you had a check ride so soon, but that means you did not prepare yourself enough beforehand. Anybody (students or instructors) in PHX could have told you before you went up to Vegas to be ready for your MEI in a week. That is pretty standard.

I would tell the original poster to visit the location you are thinking about attending (either ATP or American Flyers). Get a feel for the instructors and talk to the STUDENTS that are there doing what you will be doing (Don't talk to an instrument student if you are going to CFI school, talk to the CFI students!). Don't listen to any of us, we can give you our unique experiences but we may learn in different ways compared to you and we may "click" with instructors that you would not "click" with and vice versa. Good luck in whatever you choose.

I speak from exerince, you do not. yes the whole program (CFI/CFII/MEI) is supposed to be two weeks, if you come in from the outside. if you don't, then after your MEI, they send you back to where you came from to get your add-ons about 90% of the time. The day after my checkride, I was told to leave. They had another set of students comming in who HAD to have the appartments. SO MY WHOLE CLASS GOT THE BOOT. I was asked for my opnion (title of the post is "ATP/American Flyers CFI Program - Input Greatly Apprecia"), and gave it. I also instructed for American Flyers at Santa Monica. So i guess i could speak from both ends of the specktrum. As I said earlier, don't spend your money on the CFI program through ATP, spend it on AF's. As far as Frank still being there, I guess you don't understand networking very well, or know anything about Frank. He has been there for years, and is still there, according to Jamal.

As far as my instructors telling me that it's supposed to all happen in vegas, they didn't feed me a bunch of BS. They told me I'd go there for my MEI, and come back to PHX for the add-ons, as 90% of those who had gone before me had.

ATP's CFI school pass rate is less than 50%, AF's pass rate, nearly 95%. Now where would you spend your money? I belive the kids these days are calling that "owned"

 

[guywhoflies]

Re: ATP/American Flyers CFI Program - Input Greatly Apprecia

There are so many things that are wrong with what you said, I don't know where to start.

First, I do have experience with ATP and their CFI school. I went through it and knew exactly what to expect. If you looked at your Airline Career Pilot Program binder you would have seen that in the 90 day breakdown, it calls for two weeks for Stage 5, which is all three CFI crtificates.

As you said, they send you back to your location most of the time to do the additional CFI certificates. You "got the boot" from the apartment??? What, you wanted to sit around in Vegas doing nothing a little longer? They "boot" everyone out of the apartment after your checkride for two reasons: 1) as you said, because they probably need the apartment for the next person and 2) to get you back to your location so you can FINISH THE PROGRAM!!! It seems you are saying you didn't like the fact that they made you go back to PHX the day after your checkride!?!

Finally, I know Frank is still there. I was referring to the mystery "guy" who you said did nothing but get mad at you when you went there on xc's. I said he may still be there or he may be gone by now. As you should know from going through the program, instructors (other than Frank) come and go pretty frequently. I don't think you can use that one experience with that particular instructor as a very good example of a bad CFI school. That was the point of my last paragraph to the original poster. I was saying that instead of listening to us they should go tour ATP and American Flyers and judge the instructors for themselves. I am not telling the original poster to go to one or the other, I am saying to tour both places and make their own decision.

One more thing, I don't know what the pass rate is for ATP cfi school? I have never heard anyone give a number as far as ATP's pass rate. I am curious to know where you got your statistic of "less than 50%"? And while you're at it, if you could give a citation for AF's pass rate of "nearly 95%". Thanks.

 

[SatelliteBeachPilot]

Re: ATP/American Flyers CFI Program - Input Greatly Apprecia

^His "less than 50%" pass rate quote was something he just blurted out without thinking about what he was writing. That is just simply not true.

I went through CFI school at ATP with 5 other guys, ALL of us passed our CFI-I and MEI checkrides. Personally, I busted my CFII, and it was the ONLY checkride I have ever busted, it was my fault, not ATP's.

Pass Rate= less than 50%= False (I think they call that MythBusters nowadays?)

 

[mshunter]

Re: ATP/American Flyers CFI Program - Input Greatly Apprecia

There are so many things that are wrong with what you said, I don't know where to start.

First, I do have experience with ATP and their CFI school. I went through it and knew exactly what to expect. If you looked at your Airline Career Pilot Program binder you would have seen that in the 90 day breakdown, it calls for two weeks for Stage 5, which is all three CFI crtificates.

As you said, they send you back to your location most of the time to do the additional CFI certificates. You "got the boot" from the apartment??? What, you wanted to sit around in Vegas doing nothing a little longer? They "boot" everyone out of the apartment after your checkride for two reasons: 1) as you said, because they probably need the apartment for the next person and 2) to get you back to your location so you can FINISH THE PROGRAM!!! It seems you are saying you didn't like the fact that they made you go back to PHX the day after your checkride!?!

Finally, I know Frank is still there. I was referring to the mystery "guy" who you said did nothing but get mad at you when you went there on xc's. I said he may still be there or he may be gone by now. As you should know from going through the program, instructors (other than Frank) come and go pretty frequently. I don't think you can use that one experience with that particular instructor as a very good example of a bad CFI school. That was the point of my last paragraph to the original poster. I was saying that instead of listening to us they should go tour ATP and American Flyers and judge the instructors for themselves. I am not telling the original poster to go to one or the other, I am saying to tour both places and make their own decision.

One more thing, I don't know what the pass rate is for ATP cfi school? I have never heard anyone give a number as far as ATP's pass rate. I am curious to know where you got your statistic of "less than 50%"? And while you're at it, if you could give a citation for AF's pass rate of "nearly 95%". Thanks.

Let me start with the last paragraph first. Of the 9 people who I went through CFI school with, the only ones to pass were those of us from PHX, and we were the first class from PHX to have everyone make it. The class before us, half of them came back to PHX, and packed their bags, because they double busted, or were refused a sign off (and I know this will bring comments from you, no i do not expect to buy ratings. I studied every night, and did very well at ATP). The others that were at CFI school, all double busted, and were kicked out. 4 from phx, and 5 from else where (RIV/SAC), actually makes that about a 58% fail rate, hence less than 50%, but I was being gracious. As far as AF's pass rate, I have tought it, because they use a team teaching approach. And I have seen 1st hand the difference between the two. So I know there is a 95% pass rate. Of the last class I tought (approx. 3 months ago, right before I left), ALL 11 STUDENTS PASSED, with only one having to do his oral twice. He gave a book answer for the affects of CG changes, and was asked to explain it better, but got stuck on it for about an hour before Pat decided to bust him for it (Pat works for the FAA, so they are hard rides). I have yet to see a class where everyone dosen't make it, so again, I was beeing conservative instead of using 100%. I hope these are satisfactory answers for you.

As far as knowing what to expect, I knew exactly what to expect. Frank and his boys, have a reputation of being a bunch of jerks. More people take their money and go elsewhere than go to CFI Vegas. He has a bad rap, and treats his students w/no respect. Mabey I should have been a little more clear for someone as particular as yourself. Yes, I took my ride in 7 days, and passed. But it took longer than the two weeks published, because I had to eat up 1 day in travel to get back to PHX, I didn't get to finish in Vegas like I was told I would be able to. I had already spent a day in vegas preping for the way their examiners do things for my II. So I wasted some time up there. When I finished my MEI ride, I was told to go back to the appartment and study for the II. Then, two days later(day of the check ride equals 1, day after equals 1 more untill 4PM), I was told I had to leave, that night. They (Frank and his boys)kept it a secret from us untill about 4PM, when we all went down there to "study", and played dumb like we haden't heard anything. One of the other students heard the conversation and was told to keep quite, but didn't. He heard this at around 10AM. So I guess you could say i didn't get what I expected.

I think your picking apart my experince, and only using what you want to. I said, but mabey not quite as blunt, that as a whole, the CFI program was a joke. Six days to prep for a checkridethat you'll take on the seventh, if you haven't already been at ATP is not very long. If it's not all fresh in your mind, you may not make it. I never said it was a bad experince. As far as using that one instructor for a bad experince, if you want to look at it that way, I guess it only takes one apple to spoil a whole basket. So if you get that one instructor, you just may be screwed. Don't take what I post out of context. It seems as though you are fishing for something.


Now for your first paragraph. I am glad to hear that you went through ATP's CFI program and passed. Good for you. It's an extreamly tough program. But, You have absolutely zero experince with AF's CFI program, which I ,myself, have tought. So This is exactly where this comment comes from. Done with that one now too.

On a closing note, I want you to go to my previous posts, and see exactly what I have been saying about ATP's program on these forums. I stick up for them quite a bit. I think they run an excptional school, that as long as you show up prepared, you will do great. But slip up just a little bit, and you will fall behind, and more than likely be kicked out. More people quit or get booted from ATP than make it. Of the twelve people I started the private program with, I was the only one who finished. If they payed a little better, and treated their instructors just a little better, I'd be working for them right now. And of all the people who I roomed with in the appartment, nearly half were booted from the school. Why don't you send fletchersteel a PM, and ask why he got kicked out of the program. It was complete BS, and ATP knew about it before he even gave them a deposit, and he still got the boot. I guess your wife having a baby is not a good reason to miss some school.

finished w/you:nana2:, unsubscribing

 

[DL31082]

Re: ATP/American Flyers CFI Program - Input Greatly Apprecia

Quoting ATP's pass rate using your one class is wrong. They run CFI schools at several different locations. Just because your classes pass rate was low does not mean that ATP's pass rate as a company is low. My class had about an 80% pass rate. One thing you are right about. You HAVE to be prepared ahead of time!!!! If you aren't you are going to fail. The program is just to fast to learn everything right then and there.

 

[mshunter]

Re: ATP/American Flyers CFI Program - Input Greatly Apprecia

Quoting ATP's pass rate using your one class is wrong. They run CFI schools at several different locations. Just because your classes pass rate was low does not mean that ATP's pass rate as a company is low. My class had about an 80% pass rate. One thing you are right about. You HAVE to be prepared ahead of time!!!! If you aren't you are going to fail. The program is just to fast to learn everything right then and there.

See previous post, 1st paragragh, 1st few sentences. I used 2 classes as an example. And the class before them, all didn't go, because of Franks rep. Quit picking it apart. More people came back to PHX because they busted than because they didn't. Besides, pay $7K for 14 days(ATP), or $3K for 30 days(AF), with a better sucess rate, and add the multi for another $1500. I absolutely hate AF, and love ATP, but for the money, you definatly get a better education from AF. I don't realy care where you go in the freakin US if you attend ATP, you still get more for less at AF (some one shoot me for saying that). For anything other than the CFI programs, ATP beats AF hands down, even on cost. If you attend ATP from the start of your private, STAY ATP! Otherwise, IN MY OPNION, go to AF.

Now, if you don't like my opnion, DL31082, thats just too bad.

 

[DL31082]

Re: ATP/American Flyers CFI Program - Input Greatly Apprecia

See previous post, 1st paragragh, 1st few sentences. I used 2 classes as an example. And the class before them, all didn't go, because of Franks rep. Quit picking it apart. More people came back to PHX because they busted than because they didn't. Besides, pay $7K for 14 days(ATP), or $3K for 30 days(AF), with a better sucess rate, and add the multi for another $1500. I absolutely hate AF, and love ATP, but for the money, you definatly get a better education from AF. I don't realy care where you go in the freakin US if you attend ATP, you still get more for less at AF (some one shoot me for saying that). For anything other than the CFI programs, ATP beats AF hands down, even on cost. If you attend ATP from the start of your private, STAY ATP! Otherwise, IN MY OPNION, go to AF.

Now, if you don't like my opnion, DL31082, thats just too bad.

Mshunter. Isn't that the point of this kind of forum, to debate opinions. Your opinion is your opinion. My opinion is my opinion. I have never taken anything you said personal. There is no need for the personal attack. I was just stating that one or two classes does not make a trend. If you want to know pass rates, why don't you try asking Jax. I'm sure they keep the stats. Take whatever they give you and decrease it by 10 percent.

Now here is the truth about ATP. The ONLY way it is worth is if you have a SOLID knowledge base and you have been flying A LOT in the monthes leading up to it. This course is not made to teach you but to refine the knowledge and skills you already have. You can pass this checkride if you are prepared. I did.

 

[BillH]

Re: ATP/American Flyers CFI Program - Input Greatly Apprecia

About American flyers, a couple of my co-workers came from there. I don't want to spread false rumors, just make sure the location your thinking about going to is not in danger of closing.

 

[houfo]

Re: ATP/American Flyers CFI Program - Input Greatly Apprecia

Did American Flyers at DWH several years ago and was VERY pleased with the instruction and price. Would definitely recommend them...

 

[RICHARD5]

Re: ATP/American Flyers CFI Program - Input Greatly Apprecia

Do you realize how many CFI's are out there that cannot find a job right now? Good luck to you.

The down cycle is exactly the best time to train for the up swing.

 

[SoCalFlyer2]

Re: ATP/American Flyers CFI Program - Input Greatly Apprecia

I went through ATP's career program and CFI school. I passed my initial (MEI), busted in the oral for my CFI-I add on (feds were "observing" my examiner during my oral) and passed my CFI single first time.

Had I not gone through ATP's career program, I doubt I would have been able to pass those checkrides. You need to be really prepared and fly a lot before you start the CFI program.

At the time, ATP was not offering a stand-alone CFI program so everyone in my class had graduated from their career program. There were a couple guys in my class that had finished the program several months prior to class start date and were let into the program even though they opted out previously. These two individuals never even got signed off to take their checkride and were spending cash out of their own pockets to buy additional seminole time.

If you graduated from their program and did fairly well you can hack the CFI program. If you got your comm/multi a couple years ago and haven't flown much in the month prior to your checkride you might have some issues keeping up with the pace. You are pretty much expected to know everything at that point and they merely go over lesson plans with you and review the regs. They are not there to teach you how to do a weight/balance or explain how lift is generated.

 

[LatitudeDancer]

Re: ATP/American Flyers CFI Program - Input Greatly Apprecia

I attempted the CFI/CFII Flyer’s academy in PMP. There was a girl that got through part 61 in 29 days and only went over a couple hundred $ (needed 1 more hour in the 172RG for landings as she trained in an Arrow previously). The only people the program seemed to work well for and not be too irritating to were younger individuals who just finished their instrument and commercial and were very proficient in both. If you want out in 35 days (granted no FSDO curve balls) come with your writtens already out of the way, a good understanding of what you need in your lesson plans, and even maybe make a few while studying for your commercial before you show up. Patrick (a chief and the instructor academy’s instructor) is the glue that holds the place together. Have fun with sgt. Dasho; he called me an enigma. Funny guy.

There were some older people there who trained up to the commercial level back in the day that took 35-55 days to finish. They were not told to come instrument proficient to a level that would allow you to pass your instrument ride and they thought just because they did an IPC recently they were fine. They were pretty frustrated and felt were miss-sold on the program. But they got out alive eventually with another $1,000 +/- dished out. Most required 10 hours instrument flight (instead of the 5 advertised) and 8-10 hours on the CFI-A maneuvers (instead of the 5 advertised).

From personal experience, they pretty much will not let you do it part 141. It is also a waste of time. You must spend 15 of the 20 hours you buy on instrument flying per the approved syllabus (they got busted a while back letting people do chandelles, etc during these 15 hours and will not bend any more). I forced part 141 to get more Cessna time (I trained in Diamonds) and it was the whole trying to get a pig to sing routine. 2 and ½ months later I got bored and left. Long story short, there are only 2 instructors you can fly with for the 141 program and they are chiefs so they don’t have that much time for you.

Also, they have an interesting hook up with the local FSDO if you want an easy checkride. (No I am not saying it’s good, bad, or indifferent. Note: I left PMP with no instructor certs. for a reason). Basically the FSDO is so backed up they assign DPEs for your initial and they are the same half dozen +/- they use over and over so they’ve got a good gauge on the oral and ride. Since they are DPEs and not technically FSDO I don’t think anyone in my class spent more than 4 hours on the oral and ride combined and one guy did the CFI and CFII successfully in 1 day with the same DPE. Also, they’ve got the DPEs convinced that if you have a ground instructor certificate, 61.185(b)(1) means you cannot be tested over FOI (or at least can’t be failed for it so you may only get 1-2 questions). Upon learning this on day 2 of the academy, pretty much everyone called the FLL FSDO and made an appointment to get their AGI signed off (and I guess there’s a typo somewhere that reads if you have an AGI you can teach instrument, so nobody bothered with the IGI).

Overall, if you come prepared and are used to the shenanigans of your typical, larger flight school, it’s a pretty quick and cheap way to get the CFI and CFII. I’m just anal and can’t ½ ass things, so I’m back home going the FBO route in no hurry at all fine-tooth-combing everything. It was an interesting/good experience though.

 

[n89721]

Re: ATP/American Flyers CFI Program - Input Greatly Apprecia

mshunter is so correct in what he is saying about all atp in vegas, and the wonderful people who run the company no all about how bad it is and they still let people go there i will bad mouth atp forever not that it will do any good other than i'll feel better thanks mshunter for saying something